tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post1855839603032020776..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Converting a Novus Ordo Parish to TraditionBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-33135012413839908712020-01-19T12:53:16.516-05:002020-01-19T12:53:16.516-05:00Very well said.Very well said.Christoph Hagenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315076974922361846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-48027017665799568742019-12-24T05:54:56.397-05:002019-12-24T05:54:56.397-05:00It is interesting to note that some of the recentl...It is interesting to note that some of the recently revealed abuses were committed prior to Vatican II and the resultant overthrow of the traditional rite. To this day, we have the witness of men and women whose faith in God remains despite their being imprisoned or forced underground and denied access to either form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Apostasy results when individuals choose darkness over light. But let God be true and every man a liar: a remnant will remain, and Holy God Almighty will claim His Bride.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-70048758974501779412019-12-21T13:47:09.341-05:002019-12-21T13:47:09.341-05:00Yes, I agree with what you're saying.Yes, I agree with what you're saying.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-62338305269685571202019-12-21T13:35:16.169-05:002019-12-21T13:35:16.169-05:00Dr. K
"Correct, in the sense that the Church...Dr. K<br /><br />"Correct, in the sense that the Church is made up of many valid, legitimate, organically developed historical rites"<br /><br />Very true, but that's not the sense in which I meant it. I mean that the Catholic Tradition is not equivalent with *any* liturgy or rite. The legitimate rites of the Church preserve the essence of the faith, but they are not the faith itself. The faith is bigger than the liturgy, and even if one does not have exclusive access to the TLM (to use a radical example, Catholics in Japan during the period when there was no priests), that does not mean one has zero access to the Catholic Tradition.<br /><br />"the goal, it seems to me, is to help Catholics rediscover the rite that is truly theirs."<br /><br />Absolutely. My point here is think that means having some sort of involvement in the parishes where 95% of them attend.<br /><br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-67354228393031494712019-12-21T12:55:56.756-05:002019-12-21T12:55:56.756-05:00"The TLM isn't the entirety of the Cathol..."The TLM isn't the entirety of the Catholic tradition, only a part of it."<br /><br />Correct, in the sense that the Church is made up of many valid, legitimate, organically developed historical rites, e.g., Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Byzantine, Coptic, etc.<br /><br />Unfortunately, the Novus Ordo is not one of these. So of course we should be friendly towards Catholics who attend it, hang out with them, do Bible studies with them, but the goal, it seems to me, is to help Catholics rediscover the rite that is truly theirs.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-26359548345234974542019-12-21T12:13:36.148-05:002019-12-21T12:13:36.148-05:00@Dr. K,
True that there is certainly an objective...@Dr. K,<br /><br />True that there is certainly an objective, structural dissonance between the two--even in (rare) cases where the NO is done strictly by the book. But also. just because there is a structural dissonance does not mean the worshiper will necessarily have an experiential dissonance. I know Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, etc. but sometimes I think we view this principle in a light that is too deterministic. I've studied the roots of this problem for over a decade and certain have followed the rabbit hole down as deep as it goes, and even though I acknowledge of course the superiority of the TLM, I don't think the NOs I have voluntarily attended have weakened my faith or damaged or led me to impiety. Perhaps this is different for other people.<br /><br />Regarding your other comment about kids, absolutely. That's why I would never say "You have to drag you and your kids to an NO" but rather the argument was merely "We need to stay in touch with the NO world"Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-82740599681744288422019-12-21T12:07:57.540-05:002019-12-21T12:07:57.540-05:00@Anonymous
That's a hard choice. I take my ch...@Anonymous<br /><br />That's a hard choice. I take my children to both forms about 50/50, sometimes at my parish, sometimes elsewhere. But also remember that the TLM isn't he entirety of Catholic tradition, only a part of it. There's many ways to continue to expose your children to the Catholic Tradition even if you are not attending the TLM 100% of the time.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-62257560340807277582019-12-21T11:28:57.757-05:002019-12-21T11:28:57.757-05:00Titus, I think this is a position one can hold onl...Titus, I think this is a position one can hold only so long as one is not willing to look into the deeper issues with the liturgical reform, as I go into them here:<br /><br />https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/11/on-fiftieth-anniversary-of-novus-ordo.html<br /><br />And then there is the cognitive dissonance between the two "forms," which admittedly wouldn't be AS MUCH of a problem at a Nashville Dominican school, but even so...<br /><br />https://onepeterfive.com/talk-children-liturgical-evils/Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-70234340363279936852019-12-21T09:59:00.182-05:002019-12-21T09:59:00.182-05:00Boniface is exactly correct. And I'll take it ...Boniface is exactly correct. And I'll take it a step further: you can't make the attempt to introduce the Traditional Mass and Sacraments at (even a very traditional) N.O. parish a zero-sum game. Many Catholics view the Traditional Mass and Traditionalists with suspicion---some because they had bad interactions or experiences back in the days when Traditionalists were much farther outside the mainstream of American Catholicism. I have seen firsthand people who were happy to have their N.O. with lots of Latin and receive Holy Communion at an altar rail literally leave a parish in large numbers when their reverent Sunday Novus Ordo was converted to a TLM. <br /><br />(It didn't help that the pastor was a buffoon who was not fit for the parish and was personally in favor neither of the reverent, traditionally oriented N.O. nor the TLM, which was a diocesan edict. All the same, the results of the affair were discouraging.)<br /><br />A lot of younger Catholics may take a more latitudinarian approach even if they are not themselves in the Traditional party, but older Catholics are likely to suspect that you're a sedevacantist of some stripe if you are any manner of Traditionalist. If you want to get along with these people---and it's pretty inevitable to do so---you are going to have to be charitable to them.<br /><br />As for children, it's not rocket science. We go to a TLM every week, but our children go to a school run by a traditional N.O. religious order, the Nashville Dominicans. So they go to Mass in English at school and learn, I presume, the congregational responses and rubrics of that form. That's culturally valuable, because as Boniface points out, that's Catholicism for 95+% of the world. We don't deprecate the new Mass or people who attend it, or talk about which form of the liturgy is "better" with them: none of that is constructive for a small child who needs to learn to get along in a world in which even as an observant Catholic of any kind she is already going to be outside the norm. Titushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01905201479928703850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-21666438375549075632019-12-21T04:37:47.858-05:002019-12-21T04:37:47.858-05:00We had a traditional priest at our Parish who foll...We had a traditional priest at our Parish who followed a similar process to your priest at our Novus Ordo parish. Introduced Ad Orientam, the Old Mass albeit at 7am in the morning on a Sunday, but which had many people attending, and with two extra, 7 am Latin masses during the week. We had so many extra Solemn Traditional Latin masses on feast days, Holy hours, processions, blessing of Epiphany water, beautiful vestments, the purchase of an ombrellino, confession every day, and the list goes on. Many young families arriving due to our priest being traditional and doing the Novus Ordo mass reverently with Gregorian chant on a Sunday. Unfortunately something went wrong. It is a very large parish with some vociferous people complaining about the Latin, even though they had been taught the importance of it many times. I think our priest wasn't supported enough and as it's an extremely busy parish. Enough is enough it seems and he has decided to resign. This is a huge blow to the lovers of the old Mass. It is really tough on a traditional priest to bring in changes to a very large Novus Ordo parish. I think it can tear a traditionally trained priest apart saying the Novus Ordo every day, and the Old mass only once a week predominantly, and especially if you have a very large parish which have people programmed to the Novus Ordo consumer-like mentality. It's a huge battle and our priest was tough. No-one worked harder to bring in the beauty of the Traditional Catholic faith than our priest so it is unlikely that after 8 years of very, very hard, tough work that our parish will convert now. Mona Lisa https://www.blogger.com/profile/01634793372689809517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-3932945827162297852019-12-21T00:08:17.033-05:002019-12-21T00:08:17.033-05:00I wrestled with this question for a long time, and...I wrestled with this question for a long time, and what became the "kicker" for me was thinking about the effect on children of seeing the Novus Ordo as it is usually celebrated - with Father facing the people, EMHC's, crummy music, etc. If there are children involved, it may not be fair to them to make them suffer through years of Novus Ordo Masses while one tries at a painfully slow rate to nudge the parish in a better direction.<br /><br />These articles might be helpful to your question:<br />https://onepeterfive.com/children-change-everything/<br />https://onepeterfive.com/bad-liturgical-parenting/<br />https://onepeterfive.com/pouring-argument-soul-taking-care-worship/Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-53368338813200404222019-12-20T15:32:31.489-05:002019-12-20T15:32:31.489-05:00I've been recently having doubts wether I shou...I've been recently having doubts wether I should attend a Novus Ordo parish with my children in the future. On one hand, I don't want to bring my children to NO, I'd rather have them grow up in the light of tradition. On the oder hand, if I retreat to an already existing TLM, I can never bring it to my parish. I don't see how can I have an impact on it and never attend Sunday mass there and have my children receive sacraments elsewhere. What is your opinion about it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com