tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post2149793225288120476..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: I'm probably gonna lose readers with this oneBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-12882700392193863622014-11-20T14:04:13.413-05:002014-11-20T14:04:13.413-05:00Ave Maria Bonifice!
I do believe that you cannot ...Ave Maria Bonifice!<br /><br />I do believe that you cannot separate the Mass from the Faith.<br />The two are wound together like Christ's Holy Death on the cross is wound together inextricably with His Teaching.<br />The Holy Mass is the summit of the Faith.<br /><br />There are in fact many people who are morally unable, it is really impossible, for them to assist at the New Rite of Mass.<br /><br />I am one of them.<br /><br />My FSSP spiritual director has told me to ONLY go to the NO as a last gasp effort.<br /><br />I know it is a person to person situation, but there are many of us persons like this out there.<br /><br />Ave Maria!<br />DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-72424407818876599422014-11-18T07:41:46.821-05:002014-11-18T07:41:46.821-05:00It was not only the holy Sacrifice of the Mass in ...It was not only the holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the extraordinary form that was the issue with the FFI as even the dissenting friars have claimed. They also publicly speak out against so called 'rad trads' so they did have a dislike for the TLM but also there was disobedience to the founders and a power struggle. Sympathetic ears were found in the Vatican--no surprise there--and then when the time was ripe, the persecution began. There has been much suffering. Yet the holy ones accept it with as much peace as possible because they know their offering is for the Immaculate. The dissenting friars have publicly detracted the founders and others and one of the new 'governing' ones even was taking a lay person to civil court for having called him a traitor (which he is). Since when does a Franciscan take a lay person to a civil court? This is the sort of 'new leader' that the institute must suffer with. To say that a solemnly professed friar cannot go to another institute or go to a bishop, much less offer the TLM, is unheard of anywhere else. There is a great hatred against those who wish to embrace all the teachings and traditions of holy mother Church and it comes from within.<br /><br />It is not just about the Mass, but consider what has happened since the TLM was stolen from the faithful. Millions upon millions have left the Church...M. Prodigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598092468839468735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64457995406809455902014-11-17T21:34:07.672-05:002014-11-17T21:34:07.672-05:00Nate,
When a superior commands something unjustly...Nate,<br /><br />When a superior commands something unjustly, it is no sin to obey the unjust command so long as it does not involve personal sin on the part of the one carrying out the command. <br /><br />In other words, it may be sinful for the bishop to give a certain command, but that does not mean it is sinful for the priest to obey, so long as it does not cause the priest to sin.<br /><br />I have always believed that it is not good for someone under obedience to seek transfer in order to get themselves out of unpleasant situations. That is not the model of obedience I read about in the Imitation of Christ and other classic spiritual works, all of which suggest that the great test of obedience is toughing out an uncomfortable situation when you would like to leave, per 1 Pet. 2:19-20, 3:13-14. This applies even if the bishop is not a holy man and even if his commands are motivated by nefarious purposes.<br /><br />The only time it would be really advisable to do that would be if the bishop is commanding something positively sinful in and of itself. In that case, it would be not only good but necessary to seek transfer or refuse obedience. But in the cases I am describing, the priests involved would have to make the case that the simple request to go on sabbatical or stop saying the EF Mass or stop saying any Masses was tantamount to a positive sin. I have argued that I do not think this is the case. <br /><br />Therefore, the priests owe obedience - if they want they can seek transfer; the most perfect option would be to endure patiently where they are planted.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-22916163203888940752014-11-17T20:32:11.054-05:002014-11-17T20:32:11.054-05:00I guess I can't reconcile how one would be &qu...I guess I can't reconcile how one would be "appalled" if a priest who was unjustly commanded by his bishop was considering to take action against this injustice? <br /><br />One is called to "Honour thy father and thy mother" too but we all know that not all fathers or mothers can be "honored", ast least not in the way they desire.<br /><br />So if a priest or anyone for that matter leaves the jurisdiction of their diocese into the welcoming arms of another bishop who sees zero problems with their convictions - is there no room for righteous indignation?<br /><br />I don't know if I could subscribe to your idea of "the bishop giveth and the bishop taketh away", unless I am to assume the referenced bishop is always a good and holy man who shares the will of God. <br /><br />I can't help but think of Luke 12:36-59 and wonder how it could apply to this very topic, but I won't pretend to be any sort of expert, it's just my feeling on the matter. Thanks and keep up the good blogging._https://www.blogger.com/profile/03082830088555849542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-21311425997240657902014-11-17T15:41:46.193-05:002014-11-17T15:41:46.193-05:00Pat,
Oh right...you mean with regards to these ag...Pat,<br /><br />Oh right...you mean with regards to these agents going around telling bishops they'd better not take the FFI if they know what's good for them? Yes, that makes little sense...Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-21282150573584053682014-11-17T15:32:34.443-05:002014-11-17T15:32:34.443-05:00Boniface,
I apologize if my "scandalous"...Boniface,<br />I apologize if my "scandalous" comment seem directed at you. It was more of a general comment on the FFI situation and some of the reaction to it. Sorry about that.Patrick Archboldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13230114519933936165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-6244734873203508772014-11-17T15:17:28.602-05:002014-11-17T15:17:28.602-05:00Kudos, Boniface. Spot on. Courageous and well thou...Kudos, Boniface. Spot on. Courageous and well thought outMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-84075787000275730482014-11-17T14:28:01.383-05:002014-11-17T14:28:01.383-05:00Pat, I am not sure where I said requesting incardi...Pat, I am not sure where I said requesting incardination elsewhere was scandalous or wrong. I said:<br /><br /><i>Though their treatment has been extraordinarily unjust, it wounds me when I hear members of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate seeking to be dispensed from their vows or transferred to other orders because their access to the Extraordinary Form has been curtailed. Do the have the right to do this? Yes. Is it the most perfect course of action? No.</i><br /><br />A little later on I said:<br /><br /><i>It is certainly legitimate to seek legal redress to these problems through appropriate canonical channels. But, if they would take the more perfect route, it seems that until this is settled, the FFI priests and brothers should obey and just stay where they are at.</i><br /><br />I am not suggesting it is wrong or scandalous to seek incardination elsewhere; I am suggesting it is not as perfect as staying where you are planted and enduring whatever is thrown at you.<br /><br />Regarding other matters other than the EF, I grant that point.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-13950485905662001262014-11-17T14:22:31.381-05:002014-11-17T14:22:31.381-05:00Requesting a release from religious vows and reque...Requesting a release from religious vows and requesting incardination in a diocese is something that happens rather routinely. Why do we suddenly find this scandalous?<br /><br />With all respect, I also think it does a disservice to those priests making such a request to boil it down to only the mass. There are many more things involved in religious life under the current FFI that might reasonably contribute to the desire to leave the order. By simply assuming it is the mass and the mass only, I think you likely miss the mark.Patrick Archboldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13230114519933936165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24997672725406071922014-11-17T11:41:30.433-05:002014-11-17T11:41:30.433-05:00Titus, I don't think seeking a transfer is dis...Titus, I don't think seeking a transfer is disobedience, but I do think it is not the most perfect form of obedience.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-1838778304309075192014-11-17T11:39:10.231-05:002014-11-17T11:39:10.231-05:00Eh, what Boniface says is completely correct, exce...Eh, what Boniface says is completely correct, except for lumping seeking a change of incardination in with disobedience. There is a process established in Canon Law for doing that: you can request to be released from a religious order (paging Paul VI) or to have your incardination transferred to another diocese. Happens all the time, for reasons great and small. So I don't know that one can lump merely requesting such a transfer in with the various species of going rogue.<br /><br />Also, the attempted exodus from the FFI is about rather more than the TLM: that whole order has been gutted so that it is no longer a properly functioning religious institution. That's not what these folks signed up for.Titushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01905201479928703850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-32279385605636110862014-11-17T10:33:42.393-05:002014-11-17T10:33:42.393-05:00"commitment to stability"? What would th..."commitment to stability"? What would that make of saints like Saint Teresa of Avila? Her confreres might use that against her reforms.The Hymn Selectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02571266119775747442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52059521184583281952014-11-17T08:26:53.985-05:002014-11-17T08:26:53.985-05:00You are right. I do assume the NO to be both legit...You are right. I do assume the NO to be both legitimate and valid. <br /><br />I understand that obedience is not blind obedience. But I do take a broad approach to it that it always must be rendered unless what is being commanded is positively sinful or immoral. In these cases I am not convinced it is even though it is deplorable. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58099806764246171032014-11-17T07:53:11.141-05:002014-11-17T07:53:11.141-05:00http://sspx.org/en/new-mass-legit believe that you...http://sspx.org/en/new-mass-legit believe that your reasoning is faulty. First you assume that the NO is legitimate. I disagree. It may be valid, but it is illegititmate. Secondly, you seem to suffer a false notion of being "under obedience". Obedience to a superior is not blind or unconditional, and sometimes he must be resisted-especially if his orders will harm the faith. <br /><br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17679813061029613888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64034699098172120292014-11-17T04:23:57.859-05:002014-11-17T04:23:57.859-05:00Dear Boniface, thank you for pointing to the Eccle...Dear Boniface, thank you for pointing to the Ecclesia Dei document at EWTN. Alas, the canon 844.2 they mention speaks only about non-Catholic ministers. If SSPX priests are suspended they are obviously Catholic. Nowhere this canon mentions 'good standing' or its equivalent. Besides, this chapter of CIC treats reception of all sacraments, not the Sunday/Holyday precept. These are not the same thing. The fact that can. 844.2 lists together Eucharist, Penance and Extreme Unction makes me to think that the legislator had in mind the pastoral care of the sick and dying rather than assistance at Mass.<br /><br />The fulfillment of the precept is regulated in can. 1248 (a comment above), and it likewise does not mention the good standing of the celebrant, and for good reason: the faithful could not be reasonably obliged to verify the canonical standing of this or that priest.<br /><br />Andris AmolinsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-14595633350655639402014-11-16T21:03:50.048-05:002014-11-16T21:03:50.048-05:00Thanks, Richard! I know Franciscans don't vow ...Thanks, Richard! I know Franciscans don't vow stability; I did not say that they did vow it, but I subsequently think that comment was confusing. I simply meant they're commitment to that particular order. If I enter, say, the Cistercians with the belief that I'm called to be a Cistercian and then just decide that, on second thought, I'm called to be a diocesan priest when I don't like what the Cistercians are doing anymore - well, what about my commitment and my calling to the Cistercians? If I really believe I am called to that order, God will work it out.<br /><br />Again, that's why I cite Fr Pacwa, Fr Schall and Fr Hardon as great examples - Jesuits who stuck with the order even though none of us would blame them if they jumped ship.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-90139219440585963192014-11-16T21:00:44.409-05:002014-11-16T21:00:44.409-05:00Good post. For a diocesan priest to go into religi...Good post. For a diocesan priest to go into religious life is just fine, but if he's attracted to it in order to escape a lawful assignment, it's not spiritually sound.<br /><br />Just one detail: Franciscans don't vow stability, Benedictines do: i.e., they commit to stay with one monastery for life. Is there supposed to be something like that for FFIs?<br /><br />As an aside, a friar friend has pointed out that launching new Franciscan orders is pretty routine, considering how many there are. There's even a joke about it: "Brothers, the Pope has approved the constitutions for our community. So let's schedule the split-up meeting for 1 p.m."<br /><br />Richard Chonakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02327763839418228519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-78550208637658542782014-11-16T19:31:02.911-05:002014-11-16T19:31:02.911-05:00"... members of the Franciscan Friars of the ..."... members of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate seeking to be dispensed from their vows or transferred to other orders because their access to the Extraordinary Form has been curtailed."<br /><br />In fairness, for at least some of the friars, this is not the only reason at work behind the request for a dispensing of vows.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-53478932290927983442014-11-16T19:06:00.930-05:002014-11-16T19:06:00.930-05:00For the record, Father, I did *not* say it was dis...For the record, Father, I did *not* say it was disobedience to have recourse to a superior. But it is not as perfect as obeying the command. The test of the obedience of all religious is what they do when they receive a command they do not agree with.<br /><br />I also did not say they had a vow of stability. For Benedictines, stability means staying in one monastery. I said "commitment to stability" which I meant to commitment to remain loyal and attached to the particular religious order you were called to. The fact that I don't like what the Franciscans may be doing does not mean I have no vocation to be a FFI.<br /><br />Agreed that it is about doctrine. Agreed that that is why the FFI are being persecuted. But I am not sure that "fighting back" is the most meritorious way to handle it.<br /><br />"If thou can but hold thy peace and suffer, thou shalt see, without doubt, the Lord will help thee. He knows the time and the manner of delivering thee and therefore thou must resign thyself to Him." -Imitation, Book II:2<br /><br />"He who strives to withdraw himself from obedience withdraws himself from grace" -ibid., III:13<br /><br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-33119905062082075412014-11-16T19:02:13.922-05:002014-11-16T19:02:13.922-05:00That's the title of the article by Michael Dav...That's the title of the article by Michael Davies that I linked. My way of posting it was sloppy but I was attempting to show that yes, the Mass is the Faith. In your example of Japan, for instance, they weren't forced to attend a weak imitation of the Mass. It disappeared. So their faith wasn't weakened in the same way it was when the inferior method of worship took hold, just like in England...Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17970851228593550726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-16885194235039833292014-11-16T18:52:48.986-05:002014-11-16T18:52:48.986-05:00It is *not* disobedience to have recourse to a hig...It is *not* disobedience to have recourse to a higher superior, in accordance with law, for excardination. And, FFI are not Benedictine. They take no vow of "stability". Also, it is *not* just about the Old Mass. It is about doctrine. It is about some FFI theologians daring to respectfully criticise Vatican II.Fr PJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597780307057121375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-73076161213129270462014-11-16T18:16:44.550-05:002014-11-16T18:16:44.550-05:00Andris-
"It is morally illicit for the faith...Andris-<br /><br />"It is morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these (the SSPX) Masses unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing...<b>the fact of not being able to assist at the celebration of the so-called 'Tridentine' Mass is not considered a sufficient motive for attending such Masses."</b><br /><br />That's from Ecclesia Dei: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX.HTM<br /><br />Also, the SSPX are not just vagi, they are suspended a divinis.<br /><br />Agreed on your second point, but it has never sat well with me.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-89979547433553284622014-11-16T17:19:23.244-05:002014-11-16T17:19:23.244-05:00Dear Boniface. Thank you. Like all (most of) your ...Dear Boniface. Thank you. Like all (most of) your posts, profound and well pondered. Two comments, though:<br /><br />1. You wrote: "Catholics can fulfill a Sunday obligation by attending the Mass of the SSPX if there are no other Masses available, the unavailability of an Extraordinary Form Mass in particular does not satisfy this requirement." I am not sure if this correct. <br /><br />It seems that the faithful can fullfil the obligation anywhere in a Catholic rite (can. 1248,§1), no exception being made if priest be under any censure (like suspension). Members of SSPX are arguably Catholic priests (even if <i>vagi</i> or <i>acephales</i>); the rite they use is obviously a Catholic one. On the other hand, if one would interpret this canon so that a SSPX Mass is not in a Catholic rite, then Catholics could not fulfill a Sunday obligation by attending such a Mass even if there were no other Masses available at all. Instead they would be advised to spend some time in a private or common informal prayer (can. 1248,§2). <br /><br />2. As to the hypothetical tradition-minded priest mentioned at the beginning of the post, he would have a couple of legal options. First, to enjoy the 'sabbatical'. Second, seeking excardination and incardination elsewhere; at least for a secular priest, it is a legitimate way for a wide variety of reasons (can. 267-271, esp. can. 270).<br /><br />Andris AmolinsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-51061030153790785942014-11-16T17:14:35.105-05:002014-11-16T17:14:35.105-05:00Long-Skirts,
For St Athanasius, obedience was not...Long-Skirts,<br /><br />For St Athanasius, obedience was not staying in place but leaving. His case was different, but he obeyed. What would have happened if, when unjustly excommunicated, he would have arrogantly insisted that he didn't have to obey and tried to forcibly retain his see?<br /><br />Steve D.-<br /><br />A sin for the bishop to abuse his power, yes, but not a sin for a priest to obey. I meant it is no sin to obey an abuse of power so long as it does not cause you to commit sin. A bishop may abuse his power by ordering a priest to lay on the ground while he steps on his skull. It is no sin for the priest to obey even if it is a sin for the bishop to command - and in that case, the priest ought to obey.<br /><br />Lynne-<br /><br />I would be grateful f you can show me the place in the post where I said that the Mass did not matter.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58665539791486127622014-11-16T15:20:29.376-05:002014-11-16T15:20:29.376-05:00Well, you're not going to lose me but you *are...Well, you're not going to lose me but you *are* wrong.<br /><br />If you're right, then the British laity in the 1500's were wrong.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/themass.htm" rel="nofollow">It's the Mass that matters</a> <br /><br />"By insisting that it was the Mass that mattered, and that it mattered more than anything else, the humble peasants of Devon and Cornwall displayed a profoundly Catholic instinct, a true sensus Catholicus. Their conviction that if <br />the Mass could be destroyed the faith itself would be destroyed was one that they shared with the arch-heretic Martin Luther, who once said: "Once the Mass has been overthrown, I say we'll have overthrown the whole of Popedom." 2 The Protestant heresy was directed not primarily against the papacy but against the Mass."<br /><br />Was St Edmund Campion wrong too?Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17970851228593550726noreply@blogger.com