tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post4730420539684471479..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Dum Diversas (English Translation)Bonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-72935905755667803232023-03-31T10:51:08.111-04:002023-03-31T10:51:08.111-04:00Anon,
Sorry that was a formatting error; fixed no...Anon,<br /><br />Sorry that was a formatting error; fixed nowBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-67223635502341640182023-03-31T10:44:36.272-04:002023-03-31T10:44:36.272-04:00The font killed me. Totally inaccessible to anyone...The font killed me. Totally inaccessible to anyone with the slightest visual dysfunction. A shame for all your hard work. Please fix this. Black on white is quite adequate. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-51632403416992896962022-07-01T19:16:00.263-04:002022-07-01T19:16:00.263-04:00To even openly ask the question, is it contrary to...To even openly ask the question, is it contrary to Christianity to hold the permanent right to someone's labor, is evidence that one is not Christian and has no idea what being Christian means. Christian Meaning "having the manner and spiritual character proper to a follower of Christ" is from 1590s (continuing a sense in the Middle English word). Of course Christ himself would never own someone's labor permanently for His own selfish gain. It feels like blasphemy even using the example. So how could anyone say they have the proper character and manner of Him to even wonder if slavery is just?<br /><br />What is your ethnic/religious background? I'm curious. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52797911671962052862021-04-14T17:04:22.674-04:002021-04-14T17:04:22.674-04:00@Unknown, please email me at uscatholicam@gmail.co...@Unknown, please email me at uscatholicam@gmail.comBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64092215701598472021-04-14T14:37:24.938-04:002021-04-14T14:37:24.938-04:00Do you have any contact information for Dr. Olga I...Do you have any contact information for Dr. Olga Izzo. I am having trouble finding any information for her. Would like to talk to her, as I am working on a book project that discussed this papal bull. Thank you. MikeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08526552193772575934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-6943272958334873472020-05-30T09:58:11.494-04:002020-05-30T09:58:11.494-04:00The best comment on hereThe best comment on hereAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-27027358862970969462018-08-09T02:51:32.048-04:002018-08-09T02:51:32.048-04:00To even openly ask the question, is it contrary to...To even openly ask the question, is it contrary to Christianity to hold the permanent right to someone's labor, is evidence that one is not Christian and has no idea what being Christian means. Christian Meaning "having the manner and spiritual character proper to a follower of Christ" is from 1590s (continuing a sense in the Middle English word). Of course Christ himself would never own someone's labor permanently for His own selfish gain. It feels like blasphemy even using the example. So how could anyone say they have the proper character and manner of Him to even wonder if slavery is just? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13672362840569359910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-45161956814659220352018-06-20T14:31:51.636-04:002018-06-20T14:31:51.636-04:00I can't believe that you guys are in one way o...I can't believe that you guys are in one way or another trying to justify slavery or trying to subjugate this Bull for North Africa only.<br /><br />What little people know is not only was most of the muslim world Lybia (n. Africa) Arabia and Persia was Catholic lands but that Muhammad and his wife Khadijah were both devoted Catholics and Islam wouldn't be practiced until after his death. As a matter of fact Jesus Christ is one of their prophets, the Holy See was obsessed with Saraceens and non believerd of Jesus Christ which would of been Jews. The seeds of Sara were Jews not Muslims and this bull was written by a few years before Columbus voyages like 100 and something years after the so callec crusades, Columbus wasnt going to India which was known as Hindustan then he was looking for En Deus (indios) and was very aware of where he was headed to and brought moors who spoke Hebrew and Aramaic with him.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17569463819205740038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-80818531549129887322018-05-13T16:54:11.231-04:002018-05-13T16:54:11.231-04:00[Quote] "However, while Oscar Wilde did it (d... [Quote] "However, while Oscar Wilde did it (deservedly) he observed how abused this was against some of the less dishonourable criminals than he." Are you implying that Oscar Wilde was a criminal that deserved to be in jail, worked like a slave?<br /> Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13681809607033964072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-44035313257906349402016-11-20T06:36:42.758-05:002016-11-20T06:36:42.758-05:00The translator is Dr. Olga Izzo of the University ...The translator is Dr. Olga Izzo of the University of Calagary. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-32659706942889095482016-11-20T04:04:32.467-05:002016-11-20T04:04:32.467-05:00This is quite a find if it's the only English ...This is quite a find if it's the only English translation in the world! Do you mind if I ask the identity of the translator? <br />SF<br />www.TheEvolutionOfHuman.com Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12228553254782840886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-679547532067144552015-07-17T07:58:56.123-04:002015-07-17T07:58:56.123-04:00" That all of what we think of as islamic nat...<i>" That all of what we think of as islamic nations today were prior to the 7th century, part of Christendom,"</i><br /><br />Exceptions:<br /><br />Arabian Peninsula, which had seen violent wars between Jews and Christians a century before Mohammed.<br /><br />Persia, which was Zoroastrian before Muslim conquest.<br /><br />Such parts east of Persia, like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, where other paganisms, including Hinduism, were practised before Islam.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-62641486136372224932015-07-17T07:55:37.789-04:002015-07-17T07:55:37.789-04:00"By the way, I am fully in favor of prisoners...<i>"By the way, I am fully in favor of prisoners being worked."</i><br /><br />I am not if you mean automatically for a simple prison sentence.<br /><br />In such a case, work or studies should be voluntary and incentives should be some kind of pay, though not perhaps a high one.<br /><br />Also, prisoners doing some work (like collecting wood parts of toys) are lowering prices and wages for other workers in same business.<br /><br />Forced work as a special punishment, that is another matter.<br /><br />However, while Oscar Wilde did it (deservedly) he observed how abused this was against some of the less dishonourable criminals than he.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-54593278377787043612015-07-17T07:52:03.274-04:002015-07-17T07:52:03.274-04:00"Selling his services would imply more of a e...<i>"Selling his services would imply more of a employer/employee relationship."</i><br /><br />What about signing up for foreign legion?<br /><br />If you do, you cannot legally opt out, if you cannot take it.<br /><br />And you sign up for food taken during the legion as well as for pay.<br /><br />And you aren't very free to use your pay except for on pleasures in bars, or saving up for after legion - which may even be discouraged.<br /><br />However, this (selling oneself in perpetual slavery) should not be legalised in countries where slavery has been abolished for Christian motives.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-5651172831705969432015-07-17T07:45:37.327-04:002015-07-17T07:45:37.327-04:00A punishment for a crime is one thing. Generally s...<i>A punishment for a crime is one thing. Generally such serving would be to SOCIETY and not to an OWNER.</i><br /><br />They served the Portuguese society insofar as the owners paid Portugal for them - or insofar as Portuguese who had taken them in just wars were served by them while continuing to champion Portugal.<br /><br />At one point in Visigothic law, rapists were given as slaves to victim's family.<br /><br />The condition <i>"generally such serving would be to SOCIETY and not to an OWNER,"</i> is asking why Medievals:<br /><br />* didn't put criminals in Alcatraz, when they didn't specialise in building secure Alcatraz prisons<br />AND<br />* didn't put Guinean cruminals in Alcatraz when there were so many of them, they would hardly have fitted into Alcatraz.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-37092565857958756742014-10-20T20:32:51.368-04:002014-10-20T20:32:51.368-04:00The Papal Bull of Nicholas V ushered in the Age of...The Papal Bull of Nicholas V ushered in the Age of Discovery. Perpetual servitude became the order of the day legitimized by the Pope after Pope. 1452-1865 413 yrs of chattel slavery with perpetual servitude conscienceness. The first castle 1482, Columbus sails the ocean blue in 1492 and conquest after conquest under the guise of a DUM DIVERSAS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-86466788098734446642014-05-12T23:09:42.253-04:002014-05-12T23:09:42.253-04:00It is also important to keep in mind that slavery ...It is also important to keep in mind that slavery was a major focus and intent of the islamic depredations on Christianity. That all of what we think of as islamic nations today were prior to the 7th century, part of Christendom, and that these lands had been pillaged, enslaved, and converted at the point of a sword by the followers of mohammed. The mohammedan threat against Europe continued until the victory of Jan Sobieski at the siege of Vienna in 1683.<br /><br />And if you think that perpetual servitude is a bit much, give it a decade or so and see what the "religion of peace" does to Europe in the coming years.<br /><br />And, if anyone would further want to hold a religion hostage to ancient documents, please peruse the letters sent to the Holy Roman Emperor by Mehmet IV describing his intentions in bringing his forces against Vienna...<br /><br />PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-63238311744804707562013-11-26T15:20:02.035-05:002013-11-26T15:20:02.035-05:00The problem with this bull is not the wording of t...The problem with this bull is not the wording of the bull itself. The bull was actually a fairly reasonable response to the power and aggression of the Turkish Empire. However, the power it granted to the Iberian Empires was later greatly abused in their colonial expansions in the new world, north Africa, and the far east.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-77670680943453289492011-02-17T17:36:05.775-05:002011-02-17T17:36:05.775-05:00On the issue of what kind of servitude this is, it...On the issue of what kind of servitude this is, it seems clear in Romanus Pontifex that Nicholas did not have in mind a harsh chattel slavery. This is implied when he talks about what cannot be traded with the Saracens, infidels, pagans, etc (therefore there are things that CAN be traded with them). He says this with regard to conquest as is evident from the following quote. If the people subdued are being traded with, they are clearly not being possessed in the chattel slavery sense and even have a degree of financial independence<br /><br />"...that they do not by any means presume to carry arms, iron, wood for construction, and other things prohibited by law from being in any way carried to the Saracens, to any of the provinces, islands, harbors, seas, and places whatsoever, acquired or possessed in the name of King Alfonso, or situated in this conquest or elsewhere, to the Saracens, infidels, or pagans; or even without special license from the said King Alfonso and his successors and the infante, to carry or cause to be carried merchandise and other things permitted by law..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24631283666140196532011-02-11T19:31:50.537-05:002011-02-11T19:31:50.537-05:00"it's not contrary to his dignity to sell..."it's not contrary to his dignity to sell or buy his services, even permanently”<br /><br />Selling his services would imply more of a employer/employee relationship.<br /><br />"Also, his right to sell his own services can be taken away if he diminishes his own dignity by serious crime, and so loses his right to self-determination.”<br /><br />We are certainly using one term to identify a variety of relationships. A relationship of a son to a father is wholly different from slave and master. And the relationship of a prisoner to the state is also different, at least in how we imagine prisoners in our society. (By the way, I am fully in favor of prisoners being worked.)<br /><br />I have conceded that it is not sinful always, but probably most instances of it was/is sinful in one way or another. Obviously if the Pope was misunderstood, then they sinned in enslaving people whose only crimes were being conquered peoples. If he did intend to allow enslavement, then we can rightly place him as one of the causes of the slave trade which surely was almost completely sinful. <br /><br />I maintain that a just slaveowner would always release his slave of his duty as soon as possible. This could have been de jure, or it could have been de facto.<br /><br />While the Pope did not have the benefit of understanding the great degradation which the African peoples, and others, have been subjected to, and all the cancers to civil society it has bred, he certainly could be forgiven for, what seems, his carpetbombing zeal to utterly vanquish to Muslims.Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-28909711836518912432011-02-09T18:31:34.396-05:002011-02-09T18:31:34.396-05:00Sean,
Don't think I'm anything near cert...Sean, <br /><br />Don't think I'm anything near certain on these points; I'm just speculating, so don't take these comments too seriously...<br /><br />Buying and selling a man is contrary to his dignity, since his nature is free and rational; however, it's not contrary to his dignity to sell or buy his services, even permanently. If a man can sell his own skills and services for a period, he can do so permanently. Also, his right to sell his own services can be taken away if he diminishes his own dignity by serious crime, and so loses his right to self-determination. This happens with murderers, who can justly be obligated to work for the State in slavery until their deaths. <br /><br />"Slavery consists in this, that a man is obliged, for his whole life, to devoted his labour and services to a master. Now as anybody may justly bind himself, for the sake of some anticipated reward, to give his entire services to a master for a year, and he would in justice be bound to fulfil this contract, why may not he bind himself in like manner for a longer period, even for his entire lifetime, an obligation which would constitute slavery?" (John de Lugo; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14039a.htm)<br /><br />St. Thomas also repeats Aristotle: “as regards human affairs, a son belongs to his father, since he is part of him somewhat, as stated in Ethic. viii, 12, and a slave belongs to his master, because he is his instrument, as stated in Polit. i, 2.” Again, “Reply to Objection 2. A son, as such, belongs to his father, and a slave, as such, belongs to his master; yet each, considered as a man, is something having separate existence and distinct from others. Hence in so far as each of them is a man, there is justice towards them in a way: and for this reason too there are certain laws regulating the relations of father to his son, and of a master to his slave; but in so far as each is something belonging to another, the perfect idea of "right" or "just" is wanting to them.”Ben Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76280532219438922062011-02-09T11:36:32.225-05:002011-02-09T11:36:32.225-05:00A punishment for a crime is one thing. Generally s...A punishment for a crime is one thing. Generally such serving would be to SOCIETY and not to an OWNER. Surely the buying and selling of humans is contrary to their dignity, and something which dreadfully still happens to this day. While there probably could have been instances of slaveowners which did not commit sins in owning their slaves, I would think that any Christian man would set his slaves free as soon as he could. As slavery became a set institution, this became more difficult to do because the economy was dependent on it. I am willing to be proven wrong, but I would think it sinful to hold a permanent right to someone’s labor and not try as soon as possible to relieve that person of that bind. If a man is a prisoner, then he should pay his debt to society. Humans are never chattel and never should have been.Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-9758555792421091062011-02-08T21:29:32.197-05:002011-02-08T21:29:32.197-05:00I guess we can clarify this with Romanus Pontifex ...I guess we can clarify this with Romanus Pontifex (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Nichol05/index.htm), three years later. There is little mention of slavery in this also, except for: “Thence also many Guineamen and other negroes, taken by force, and some by barter of unprohibited articles, or by other lawful contract of purchase, have been sent to the said kingdoms” and the same repetition of “perpetual servitude”. On the other hand, in Romanus Pontifex Nicholas V repeats Eugene IV and Martin V’s decrees on the subject, and Eugene IV said, “some Christians (we speak of this with sorrow), with fictitious reasoning and seizing and opportunity, have approached said islands by ship, and with armed forces taken captive and even carried off to lands overseas very many persons of both sexes, taking advantage of their simplicity… They have deprived the natives of the property, or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons, and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them,” (Sicut Dudum.) <br /><br />Then again maybe they’re different kinds of slavery: one is just servitude for a crime; the other unjust and baseless slavery, just as the difference between abortion and capital punishment is between killing the innocent and the guilty. Obviously brutality and cruelty are sinful, but is holding a permanent right to someone’s labour really a sin, or contrary to the dignity of man? This might be undesirable, like base poverty, but is it really contrary to Christianity?Ben Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-89424604258837173792011-02-08T20:28:38.459-05:002011-02-08T20:28:38.459-05:00Wow, that's quite a read. I say thank God we d...Wow, that's quite a read. I say thank God we don't have to defend such a document. It represents in my eyes the worst of the Church and State melding and power play which was reaching a fever pitch at that time. I am all for self-defense and just war. I think we should study the document and understand the real background, intent, and result, as much as we can. But I am not on board with the group that wants to gloss over the reality which took place under Catholic rulers for hundreds of years, who had no lack of Papal cheerleaders. I don't think I need to quote that saying about good intentions and hell ...Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-17216294077799156312011-02-08T06:46:23.533-05:002011-02-08T06:46:23.533-05:00Ben, no problem about the fly...I needed to post t...Ben, no problem about the fly...I needed to post this for awhile, but now that you have seen it, you see why it needs to be cleaned up. I think there is some inferred punctuation that I am missing or something, because I have a hard time believing that all his sentences were that long and wordy. <br /><br />I think you are right about the interpretation - we have a tendency to interpret passages about slavery or servitude in light of what came afterward rather than how they were understood at the time. Then again, it does say lead their "persons" in servitude, meaning that the submission was an individual one, not some kind of collective obeisance (maybe). But then again, maybe not...more research is needed.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.com