tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post5900597762863827850..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: The Traditional Mass, Too, Depends Upon the PriestBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-71274434585899974562020-12-02T17:54:41.684-05:002020-12-02T17:54:41.684-05:00Fr.Michael Oswalt.
Look up his story on YouTube.
-...Fr.Michael Oswalt.<br />Look up his story on YouTube.<br />-AndrewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-44371400705932615732020-11-04T01:46:13.074-05:002020-11-04T01:46:13.074-05:00You'd get a lot of mishmashes combining forms ...You'd get a lot of mishmashes combining forms proper to High, Sung, and Low Masses, and plenty of 25-minute Low Masses, barely started, then over and done (I've heard this was a known problem before Vatican II). And those, like it or not, would require even less effort on the part of the priest than a Novus Ordo does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-35169161290903333702020-10-31T02:26:55.462-04:002020-10-31T02:26:55.462-04:00It can be said that the EF/TLM is a "Perfect ...It can be said that the EF/TLM is a "Perfect Machine that can be operated safely by Idiots". But where is the Interior Disposition and Sense of Continuity,if ever Catholic Tradition is resurrected in Priests' Hearts?Josemaria Paulo Jeromino Martin Carvalho-Von Versterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00128928800453615354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-29025819780168571302020-10-27T06:47:47.209-04:002020-10-27T06:47:47.209-04:00Yes, they could violate the rubribs. But they are ...Yes, they could violate the rubribs. But they are violating the rubrics. Reverent words can be said irreverently. There'd have to be consequences, and that's another question.Karlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-43960866066117767562020-10-21T19:23:56.071-04:002020-10-21T19:23:56.071-04:00Imagine imposing all canonical hours of prayer, id...Imagine imposing all canonical hours of prayer, ideally 150 psalms a week. That's the other part of the liturgy modern priests don't want either.Marissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734624055833603768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4362484763969501092020-10-21T17:04:28.841-04:002020-10-21T17:04:28.841-04:00in short, we need not only the TLM, but the whole ...in short, we need not only the TLM, but the whole traditional mental and spiritual framework.<br /><br />even assuming current post-V2 priests don't have this same framework, it would be okay I think to mandate each diocese to at least have one TLM per x amount of parishioners. that would quicken the process of metanoia, so to speak. <br /><br />but not even that. Benedict and now Francis just left traditionalists some scraps (i.e. fraternities using John XXIII's missal) while embarking the rest of the Church in a naturalist-universalist direction. and, after today's news that Francis thinks gays have legal rights to form ersatz families, I sincerely fear whatever else may come from that direction. are traditionalists in practice nearly schismatics now? or, are sedes kinda right, at least until Francis leaves?Noucvnthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10753383716873209707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-57138545198715655322020-10-21T10:15:01.639-04:002020-10-21T10:15:01.639-04:00Boniface: all very good points. We are in agreemen...Boniface: all very good points. We are in agreement.<br /><br />It occurred to me this morning that in a way your thesis is like saying: "The truth of Christianity depends on people actually living according to it." In a way yes, in a way no. The truth of it is apparent in their lives, but its truth is nonetheless objective and independent of their lives; indeed, its objectivity is the reason they can live according to it!<br /><br />So too here: it must be assumed that a priest is willing to "do the red, say the black." The result may not be spectacular, but it will at least be respectful. And on this point, since the red is detailed and explicit, and the black is superior, the TLM has the wherewithal in and of itself to produce reverent liturgy. "Just add water," so to speak.<br /><br />The funeral Mass of JFK does prove the other side: the truth of the TLM depends on the willingness of priests living according to it.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52932178252754598362020-10-21T09:45:21.715-04:002020-10-21T09:45:21.715-04:00@Dr K,
I am not really trying to "gain"...@Dr K,<br /><br />I am not really trying to "gain" anything by the thesis. I don't think for a moment the TLM is "equally" dependent upon the priest--in the TLM, the priest merely needs to yield himself to the rubrics. In the NO, even if the priest follows the rubrics he needs to take the additional steps of choosing the more fitting, reverent rubrics, and EVEN THEN it's inferior to the TLM. So don't think I am positing a strict equivalency. <br /><br />I am essentially saying (I think) if the TLM also presumes priests willing and devoted to the liturgy, which as you pointed out was much more likely to happen in the pre-Conciliar mindset where altering a received liturgy was conceived of as a sin.<br /><br />If I have a thesis, it is that the idea "the priest is irrelevant in the TLM" is not entirely accurate, because a priest saying the TLM who doesn't care about the rubrics can mess it up too; as someone pointed out, the funeral Mass for John F Kennedy was a good example. https://youtu.be/E6frnUl7X0A<br /><br />But I am not positing an equivalence with the NO in that regard for all the reasons you mentioned. I am saying if you had a universal TLM, you'd still have slipshod liturgies because you'd still have slipshod priests. Would it be as bad as today? Heck no. But the TLM wouldn't make bad liturgies just disappear without a corresponding metanoia on the part of the entire churchBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-91066786864627946352020-10-21T03:54:00.203-04:002020-10-21T03:54:00.203-04:00I am afraid, as far for the priests I know (all NO...I am afraid, as far for the priests I know (all NO), they would feel lonely and abandoned having to celebrate the TLM. I do not see how they could not be tempted to introduce some "novelties" or simply abuses to the TLM. It would be interesting to know testimony of a NO priest who found his way in to the TLM and maybe deduce some sort of guidelines. I wonder whether young priests got in to TLM by themselves and offered it to their parish or if some parishoners "talked him into it". Does anyone know such a conversion story? IgorPMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07155003959109860926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-17005648743612631992020-10-21T00:15:49.230-04:002020-10-21T00:15:49.230-04:00I have been closely involved in the TLM training o...I have been closely involved in the TLM training of several priests who were very ordinary NOM-type priests: they ad-libbed, they were emotional in their ars celebrandi, they liked the options, etc. But something happened when they learned the TLM. The seriousness of it, the minutiae, the texts in Latin: they behaved differently.<br /><br />I'm not sure what you think you stand to gain by your thesis. Is it that a bad priest is a bad priest? Clearly - CLEARLY - the Novus Ordo is more casual, more relaxed, more open-ended, more option-oriented, and altogether in every way allows for and even seems to foster the kind of garbage we have all suffered under. This is what has corrupted our clergy's sense of the sacred. Obviously if you made them all do the TLM at this moment, it would be a disaster. How does that establish that the TLM is EQUALLY dependent on the reverence of the priest as the NOM is?<br /><br />In fact, I would say one of the very few certainties we have is that a "reverent Novus Ordo" depends almost entirely on the priest bringing to it an ars celebrandi that its own rubrics do not demand, whereas if a priest just follows the book for the TLM, the liturgy will at least not be a disaster.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55728852970461292502020-10-21T00:07:41.496-04:002020-10-21T00:07:41.496-04:00@Peter K
"it doesn't allow room for show...@Peter K<br /><br />"it doesn't allow room for showmanship"<br /><br />IF the priest follows the rubrics. There's no necessary reason why he *must*; it's just that the priests who celebrate it happen to because they care about the liturgy. If it was celebrated by a priest who didn't care...?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-37548738473551025222020-10-21T00:03:38.698-04:002020-10-21T00:03:38.698-04:00I agree with the comment of Edmund: the Novus Ordo...I agree with the comment of Edmund: the Novus Ordo builds into itself the opportunity for abusing right worship of God and the right ordering of the community to Him, whereas the TLM thoroughly excludes that.<br /><br />Further thoughts on this article:<br /><br />1. Although we may bitterly lament the lack of fluency in Latin (and it is a real problem), there is a blessing for a confused age such as ours: the likelihood of priests improvising in Latin is almost nil.<br /><br />2. The traditional Mass has to be celebrated ad orientem, in Latin, often in whispers. While this allows room for sloppiness, perhaps, it doesn't allow room for showmanship (except maybe during the homily). The priest is nearly forced to posit an act of liturgical cultus. He would have to be unreceptive to the point of hard-heartedness for the liturgical form itself not to have the effect of at least making him dutiful in carrying it out by "saying the black and doing the red."<br /><br />3. The unspoken background to the period between Trent and Vatican II is not only priestly formation, but the strong insistence of moral theologians that priests sin *mortally* by wilfully violating or neglecting the rubrics of the Mass. As long as people still believed in God, in the sacred, and in sin, this was a powerful incentive for doing liturgy at least "by the books," if not particularly edifyingly. This whole culture would have to be recovered as the backdrop to a general revival in the TLM. And this explains why even if Benedict XVI was a traditionalist, he would not have simply re-imposed the TLM everywhere. The conditions for it are not yet present.<br /><br /><br />Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-43432513845207723732020-10-20T20:59:05.405-04:002020-10-20T20:59:05.405-04:00I think the problem with the Novus Ordo isn’t so m...I think the problem with the Novus Ordo isn’t so much that someone might violate the rubrics and do his own thing. It’s that the liturgy as celebrated *under the rubrics* allows for all sorts of abuses.<br /><br />Sure some priest might celebrate the TLM versus populum with drums and guitars, communion in the hand, translate the whole thing into English, etc. But he would be violating the law, where he wouldn’t be with the Novus Ordo. And that’s not the same thingEdmund https://www.blogger.com/profile/15563593716428599578noreply@blogger.com