tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post5971570961559303371..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Pope Francis at the CrossroadsBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-91375978942995718752013-03-24T12:46:29.040-04:002013-03-24T12:46:29.040-04:00Alan,
Just doing a cursory glance at the bibles I...Alan,<br /><br />Just doing a cursory glance at the bibles I have around, the RSV, NAB, Benzinger Confraternity Version, Jerusalem Bible and Knox Bible all use the word "religious." It looks like only the Douay does not. That being said, after comparing translations I can see what you mean about the different senses of the word, how it can be positive or negative. <br /><br />I believe we are both in agreement but emphasizing different aspects of the issue. I am emphasizing the simple FACT of the religious impulse natural to humans that is found in every human being as a result of man's inherent desire to seek transcendence. I am making no judgment on the merit of any individual religion, only noting the existence of many religions as evidence that God created in man a disposition to seek Him, even if that gets obscured. <br /><br />You are emphasizing the OBJECT of religious belief, that which makes the belief either meritorious (if it is the Triune God) or blameworthy (if it is false gods). The fact of religion is universal in man (as the CCC teaches), but it only becomes salvific when the object of that religion is the true God. <br /><br />The danger is in emphasizing the universality of religion as a fact without the corresponding truth that the fact that all people's are "religious" does not mean their religion is pleasing to God. To teach the one without the other gives the false impression that religion qua religion is pleasing to God apart from its object. Is this what Giussani teaches?<br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-33379832932517671062013-03-24T02:38:46.732-04:002013-03-24T02:38:46.732-04:00What translation translates δεισιδαιμονεστέρους as...What translation translates δεισιδαιμονεστέρους as "religious"? In the Greek it literally means "fearing the gods" or "very reverent to demons (δαιμονες)." St. Jerome translates it as <i>superstitiosiores</i> ("too superstitious").<br /><br />Also, St. Paul's apologetics skill is very keen here because he plays on the ambiguity of <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddeisidai%2Fmwn" rel="nofollow">the good and bad senses of δεισιδαίμων</a> to help the Athenians discover the Holy Trinity.Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-27288812701438091942013-03-22T16:34:13.709-04:002013-03-22T16:34:13.709-04:00Alan,
Yes. Precisely. It is a broad definition, a...Alan,<br /><br />Yes. Precisely. It is a broad definition, as it applies to all humanity, and it is proper for it to be so broad and it does encompass pagans. To be "religious" in the sense the CCC uses it means simply to want to seek absolute truth and worship something - and the multiplicity of the world's religions testifies to this truth that man is a "religious" being by nature. That's not to pass judgment on any religion; that's not to say other religions are not false; its simply to state the fact that humans are religious innately.<br /><br />If you object to the use of the word "religious" with reference to pagans, what do you make of St. Paul's use of the word with reference to pagans?<br /><br /><i>"Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious."</i> Acts 17:22<br /><br />I personally don't see the problem with admitting that pagans are religious; to say it is not to say God is pleased with their religion. At any rate, if this is all Giussani means by it, I don't see a problem, but I don't know anything about the man.<br /><br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-35749941847584826192013-03-22T15:13:13.757-04:002013-03-22T15:13:13.757-04:00Yes, the 1st Commandment is a part of natural law....Yes, the 1st Commandment is a part of natural law.<br /><br />Also, that <i>CCC</i> passage is certainly using a very broad definition of "religious", according to which even the pagan philosophers would be considered religious.Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-25436017792532308482013-03-22T11:19:36.444-04:002013-03-22T11:19:36.444-04:00Okay, I should have been more precise with my term...Okay, I should have been more precise with my terminology. I was referring not to supernatural faith of course, which as you point out, is a gift of God, bur rather the disposition to believe, not just a natural desire to know, but a natural desire to worship...worship <i>something</i>.<br /><br />Mainly, I am thinking of this passage from the Catechism:<br /><br /><i>In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being" </i> CCC 28<br /><br />How is this different from what Giussani says?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-11458240891592705332013-03-22T11:04:49.943-04:002013-03-22T11:04:49.943-04:00I don't see how the natural desire to know mak...I don't see how the natural desire to know makes one religious. Would you consider the pagan philosophers religious?<br /><br />Men are "impelled towards 'faith' by natural law" if by "faith" you mean the naturally-acquired preambles of faith (<i>præambula fidei</i>), which even the demons have; however, faith is a supernatural gift, since its object, God, is supernatural. Against the Pelagians "the Second Council of Orange defined the statement that [infused] grace is necessary even for the beginning of faith, for the pious willingness to believe." (<a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/REALITY.HTM#50" rel="nofollow"><i>Reality</i> ch. 50</a>).<br /><br />The issue with Giussani is naturalism.Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-26081920030387530212013-03-22T08:19:30.831-04:002013-03-22T08:19:30.831-04:00Alan,
For those of us who have not read Giussani...Alan, <br /><br />For those of us who have not read Giussani, can you clarify the difference between his teaching on "religious sense" the the idea, taught by the Catechism and in other places, that mankind has an innate religious disposition that leads him to seek truth, that man is fundamentally a "religious being"? If that is all Giussani means by, I can't see it as problematic - to say all men are impelled towards "faith" by natural law and that all men are in a sense religious is not to say that men can naturally come to the "Catholic Faith", which is different.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-27542195808757712202013-03-22T00:44:25.200-04:002013-03-22T00:44:25.200-04:00@Andrew: Pope St. Pius X's encyclical on Moder...@<a href="#c5616507268174401456" rel="nofollow">Andrew</a>: Pope St. Pius X's encyclical on Modernism, <a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Pascendi</i></a>, says "From beginning to end everything [i.e., agnostic, idealist, Kantian philosophy, from which originates the Modernists' history and theology] in it [i.e., in Modernism] is <i>a priori</i>, and <i>a priori</i> in a way that reeks of heresy." Thus, if Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky wrote about Catholic theology while forcing themselves to adopt an <i>a priori</i> philosophy, they would really be doing Modernistic theology, a corruption of Catholic theology. Pope St. Pius X wrote in <a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/%7Eaversa/scholastic/24Thomisticpart1.htm" rel="nofollow"><i>Doctoris Angelici</i></a>: "we must reject that old opinion which held as irrelevant for the faith what anyone thinks about creatures, if he thinks rightly about God." <i>A priori</i>sm disregards creatures.<br /><br />Regarding "religious sense" in Giussani's understanding of it, here is what Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange would say (<i><a href="http://archive.org/details/PrinciplesOfCatholicApologetics" rel="nofollow">The Principles of Catholic Apologetics</a></i> p. 43): "[The New Apologetic] is founded also on an aspect of the doctrine of immanence. If Catholic Faith is demanded by our nature, that Faith is not in truth the supernatural. In truth the Supernatural is above not only the powers but the exigencies [needs] of human nature. These Apologists fail to see that it is natural happiness arising from the natural knowledge and love of God that our nature strives to attain."Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-41941430529466438142013-03-20T17:19:33.877-04:002013-03-20T17:19:33.877-04:00Boniface, I have read some speculation that there ...Boniface, I have read some speculation that there is an active campaign of disinformation encouraged and funded by the Kirchner Regime in Argentina coupled with the natural inclination of the press to try to "run with a scoop" without verifying claims.Flambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-14802981245497986132013-03-20T08:33:20.578-04:002013-03-20T08:33:20.578-04:00Yeah, I reported the Cardinal Law thing before tha...Yeah, I reported the Cardinal Law thing before that was sorted out...why is there so much misinformation coming out about this pope's deeds?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-56165072681744014562013-03-20T02:42:37.365-04:002013-03-20T02:42:37.365-04:00Alan, forgive me, but the link you provided that s...Alan, forgive me, but the link you provided that supposedly shows that Msgr. Guissani's works are "steeped in Modernism" strikes me as a kind of knee-jerk, superficial reaction. If by "steeped in Modernism" you mean that Guissani uses existentialist language, and that this existentialist language implies a commitment to Modernism, then you'd have to say that Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky were both committed to Modernism as well. That would be strange, considering they were both deeply anti-Modernist.<br /><br />Furthermore, I don't see what the problem is with the use of the term "religious sense." What Guissani seems to be driving at with that term is the notion that man finds himself in a dynamic spiritual state wherein he naturally seeks after meaning, truth, happiness, etc. I don't see how that's controversial. Even though St. Thomas Aquinas doesn't use existentialist language, he says essentially the same.<br /><br />And again, check out that traditionalist priest's comments. He speaks highly of Guissani, and his trad credentials are stellar; he is, after all, a graduate of Thomas Aquinas College, and it would be pretty hard to tar and feather them with the Modernist label.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10607004416434305240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24651685315848582492013-03-20T00:50:14.349-04:002013-03-20T00:50:14.349-04:00I'm sorry to say it but he didn't ban Cdl ...I'm sorry to say it but he didn't ban Cdl Law from his mansion. It was a massive mis-report on the part of the Italian media.jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00013650127156997140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-49682114038936446342013-03-20T00:23:11.259-04:002013-03-20T00:23:11.259-04:00Oh sorry, it is the blog post "New Pope appro...Oh sorry, it is the blog post "New Pope approves of Medjugorje"Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-6290432701593734072013-03-20T00:21:17.377-04:002013-03-20T00:21:17.377-04:00Boniface, this might interest you:
http://network...Boniface, this might interest you:<br /><br />http://networkedblogs.com/JrYrZAlexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55705195854679109732013-03-18T14:44:26.104-04:002013-03-18T14:44:26.104-04:00Boniface,
Yes, we have agreed to disagree on the ...Boniface,<br /><br />Yes, we have agreed to disagree on the first two items here. Hopefully our hierarchs can find a way to communicate a compromise. I realize Russia has been a problem in the recent ecumenical talks. We will se how it plays out. Lord have mercy.<br /><br />Regarding Hanukkah, I thought it is indeed referenced in the scriptures in 1 Maccabees 4:52-59 and then in John 10:22 where Jesus was actually in the temple during the Feast of Dedication. Don't let me pull you into a discussion on Hanukkah in this thread.<br /><br />Orthodox are not supposed to worship with non-Christians (some would even say non-Orthodox) either, so I don't want to make light of this issue. Certainly if the Pope began attending Hanukkah services it would at best create confusion and at worst violate Catholic dogma. My point was mainly to suggest that too much not be made of this as of now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-68954951000838656142013-03-18T13:09:12.985-04:002013-03-18T13:09:12.985-04:00I appreciate your balanced commentary. I can hope ...I appreciate your balanced commentary. I can hope but I have no illusions. As I read elsewhere, Papa Francesco is very much in the "Catholic mainstream". Watching the Mass from the Sistine Chapel the other day where the free-standing table was brought in complete with a very large microphone, I have no illusions. I saw people coming to the kneelers to receive and kneeling to receive in the hand... I have no illusions. This is the new reality. It is what it is. I have promised to pray for Papa Francesco with an extra daily rosary. I have also promised myself to pray and watch from a distance in as detached a manner as possible but again I have no illusions....anymore about a Catholic restoration especially in the liturgical sphere nor for a clarification of Vatican II. Those illusions are gone for the most part. ServusMariaeNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13963287463957393931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8863071964943950862013-03-18T12:28:24.803-04:002013-03-18T12:28:24.803-04:00@Andrew: After 3 years of being in CL, I’m now an ...@<a href="#c2016693409912404654" rel="nofollow">Andrew</a>: After 3 years of being in CL, I’m now an ex-<i>ciellino</i>. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n79-39635" rel="nofollow">CL’s founder</a>‘s writings are steeped in Modernism. You can even tell by the title of his top-selling book: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=WYF3Y_zT8zoC" rel="nofollow"><i>The Religious Sense</i></a>. <a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/sensoreligioso.html" rel="nofollow">Click here</a> for how it harbors Modernism.Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-80686400657434389012013-03-18T11:54:53.443-04:002013-03-18T11:54:53.443-04:00DurandInquisitive:
Sorry it has taken me so long ...DurandInquisitive:<br /><br />Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.<br /><br />Regarding "first among equals", yeah, you're right, Orthodox, Anglicans etc. would love to see this because it would fit more with their ecclesiology and would be a denial of the authority the popes have traditionally claimed.<br /><br />The consecration of Russia was specifically commanded by Our Lady at Fatima. You are right - it would send the message that the Orthodox ought to seek formal communion with Rome, meaning accepting the authority of the pope. It might not be diplomatic, but for Catholics the need for the consecration is set in stone. <br /><br />Regarding Hannukah, well technically, no, it is not biblical as the ceremony is not found in the Bible.<br /><br />But the problem is that Catholics have long been forbidden from formally worshipping with non-Catholics (communicatio in sacris). Bergoglio violated this when he worshipped with Jews and pagans. See Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, 1925.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47292959978832962522013-03-18T06:21:01.496-04:002013-03-18T06:21:01.496-04:00Dear Boniface. I always appreciate your ideas and ...Dear Boniface. I always appreciate your ideas and thoughtful perspectives which are always worth reading and pondering.<br /><br />I hope your positive points come to fruition.<br /><br />I was one posting comments at Rorate that were such a scandal to others. While I can understand and accept that, what I can not understand is why the puissant Prelate gets a pass; that is, why is it that laymen with absolutely no power are under such intense scrutiny by The Brick By Brick Bund and other weak-conservative-catholics while the lot of them refuse to even address the actual praxis of a puissant Prelate?<br /><br />The Brick By Brick Bund has, rightly, mocked Masses with huge puppets -well, what about the mockable Masses of Bergolio?<br /><br />Fear. <br /><br />Laman are much safer targets of criticism but you can bet everything you have ever had or ever will have that were one of us soi disant trads to have authority, there would NEVER be Puppet Masses with shitty salsa songs or interfaith prayers with those who hate our guts etc etc<br /><br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-20166934099124046542013-03-18T03:06:32.874-04:002013-03-18T03:06:32.874-04:00I think there is another reason to get excited abo...I think there is another reason to get excited about Pope Francis — namely, his association with <i>Comunione e Liberazione</i>. Truth be told, I know next to nothing about CL, but if <a href="http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/one-pope-francis-allegiances-might-tell-us-something-about-churchs-future" rel="nofollow">Leftist "Catholics" like Jamie Manson</a> are disturbed by this association, I take it to be a sign of hope.<br /><br /><a href="https://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/gaudium-et-spes-with-a-little-bit-of-luctus-et-angor/" rel="nofollow">This traditionalist priest</a> also takes Pope Francis' association with CL as a good sign. His entire reflection on Bergoglio's ascension to the papal office is worth reading in its entirety.<br /><br />I have been, and shall continue to pray for our Holy Father Pope Francis.Andrewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-70192374443292727152013-03-17T19:55:45.610-04:002013-03-17T19:55:45.610-04:00Boniface, no I cannot (not right now, anyway) writ...Boniface, no I cannot (not right now, anyway) write a little synopsis on the man, as you suggest.<br /><br />When one lives a perfect nightmare, one cannot write or think properly... feelings are, how shall I put it, overwhelming just now.<br /><br />Maybe in a couple of weeks, if I settle down a bit... certainly not now (my sons and daughters keep coming at me with questions and I can't even answer them, believe me). <br /><br />But, in a nutshell, he's a Jesuit of unbelievable jesuitry.<br /><br />Alan Aversa, on my web page you'll find no specific article on Bergoglio (not worth it). I only pointed to it, so you could, as it were, gauge, what sort of a person is telling you this terrible news (the authors he cares for, the subjects he's interested in). <br /><br />But if you have a strong hold of Spanish, maybe you'll want to check out<br /><br />http://frayrabieta.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/cuarto-misterio-rabioso<br /><br />where I talk about the man (if in a somewhat irreverent way).<br /><br />In Domino, <br /><br />J.T.Jack Tollershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06335680876786251157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-88354019693967743922013-03-17T18:57:56.302-04:002013-03-17T18:57:56.302-04:00I have rad today that the Holy Father praised Card...I have rad today that the Holy Father praised Cardinal Kasper. yay<br /><br />There are bunch of neo-Modernists and liberals who are happy about this. I hope they wrong and are just bolstering because of their pride.Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-1731028541830591312013-03-17T12:33:14.815-04:002013-03-17T12:33:14.815-04:00@Jack Tollers: ¿Cuál artículo de su sito, específi...@<a href="#c4511602835643298463" rel="nofollow">Jack Tollers</a>: ¿Cuál artículo de su sito, específicamente, debo leer?<br />graciasGeremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-88927687690093043162013-03-17T08:13:26.259-04:002013-03-17T08:13:26.259-04:00Jack,
As someone from Buenos Aires, can you give ...Jack,<br /><br />As someone from Buenos Aires, can you give us a little synopsis of why this is a perfect nightmare? I went to the link but, being a stupid American, I cannot read Spanish. What are some of the reasons we should be alarmed?<br /><br />BonifaceBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-45116028356432984632013-03-17T07:44:03.220-04:002013-03-17T07:44:03.220-04:00Sir, your post is pretty much the best I've re...Sir, your post is pretty much the best I've read on the new Pope.<br /><br />Balanced, too. <br /><br />I could never write a thing like that, if only because I'm an Argentine, live in Buenos Aires, and know the man.<br /><br />For a bunch of us, over here, this is a perfect nightmare.<br /><br />(Want to know, who we are, what we represent? Check my website: www.cuadernas.com.ar/etvoila.php)<br /><br />Sorry about all this, but I suppose it is my duty to tell you... things couldn't be worse.<br /><br />J.T.Jack Tollershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06335680876786251157noreply@blogger.com