tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post6759372448130774068..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: "Saints aren't perfect"Bonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-78994097411230388422017-04-15T08:58:43.635-04:002017-04-15T08:58:43.635-04:00Can Antipopes be Saints?
Two Antipopes seem to ha...Can Antipopes be Saints?<br /><br />Two Antipopes seem to have been so Pope St Felix II who twice over became Pope after having first been Antipope and then stepped down when Liberius had cleared himself, and St Hippolytus who as far as we know never became Pope and may not have relinquished his false title.<br /><br />If Roncalli and Wojtyla were Antipopes, could they still be saints?<br /><br />I am asking because of the miracles, especially that of Roncalli. I just recently heard of it. Read of it.<br /><br />As to the two of Wojtyla, neither meets Lourdes criteria, one being delayed and one being incompletely definitive.<br /><br />In my view that could be because he went to Purgatory (the flamy image of his figure, being pure bright flames also suggests sth like that), miracles because some speculated he went to Hell, one incomplete because his apostolicity of doctrine while intended was incomplete in effect and one delayed because his entry to Heaven was delayed.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-91359746339390073562013-07-11T10:42:09.272-04:002013-07-11T10:42:09.272-04:00When a saint is canonized, it means that at the ve...<i>When a saint is canonized, it means that at the very minimum their heroic virtues are worthy of imitation.</i><br /><br />One could argue (though I'm not sure I would) that John Paul showed heroic virtue by remaining in office through his debilitating illness. As such, it could be seen as a witness to the dignity of life even in the weakness of old age, especially against the euthanasia enthusiasts. Sadly, Benedict's retirement undercuts this witness severely, and the Holy See would certainly avoid talking about this aspect of JP's heroic virtue in order to avoid embarrassing the Pope Emeritus.<br /><br />I'm afraid I know too little about John XXIII's pontificate to offer an opinion on his heroic virtue or lack thereof.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02124903563459448051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-61876051297132999622013-07-10T16:36:31.136-04:002013-07-10T16:36:31.136-04:00well, I said I might go back to sedevacantism, but...well, I said I might go back to sedevacantism, but I won't leave the church--even in its Novus ordo structures. I will simply "hold in doubt" the status of Francis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64725567650329454742013-07-09T15:36:55.152-04:002013-07-09T15:36:55.152-04:00A few things:
Yes, I do believe canonizations are...A few things:<br /><br />Yes, I do believe canonizations are infallible because otherwise we could have the possibility of offering Masses in honor of individuals not really among the blessed and hence the Mass could not be pleasing to God. I think there is a strong argument to be made based on the fact that the legal, valid rites of the Church must be objectively pleasing to God.<br /><br />I do not think the argument that John Paul may have gotten duped by people under him holds water. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on you." JP2 didn't just get fooled once; he did this sort of thing again and again and again and made no effort to stop it. He is the Pope. If you get to a liturgy and something bizarre is going on, you STOP the liturgy right then and there, correct it, and can the person who was responsible. Benedict XVI got fooled once. He showed up at Mariazell and was given some tie-dye vestments:<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/09/pope-benedict-xvi-at-mariazell.html<br /><br />This monstrosity was the working of Msgr Piero Marini. Only about a week afterward, Marini was canned and Benedict never got "fooled" like that again. http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/10/vaticans-top-liturgical-liberal.html<br /><br />The fact that JP2 allowed this stuff to go on again and again and again and never reprimanded anyone for it, offered any explanation or tried to stop it when it was happening suggests that he either knew about it ahead of time (at worst) or consented to it. If a pagan was trying to bless you, would you just let it happen even if you disagreed with it? Whatever his level of complicity or culpability (which I do not presume to judge), this stuff definitely would not have happened without his assent to some degree.<br /><br />Finally, to our former sedevecantist, please consider, you cannot base your decision to remain or leave the Church on a canonization, as if the bedrock of all truth is that JP2 cannot possibly be canonized and if he is there is no valid pope. Your affiliation with the Church is based on assent to her teachings, not on an assumption that you hold to be inviolable.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76221060003363652792013-07-09T14:16:46.444-04:002013-07-09T14:16:46.444-04:00Are Canonizations really infallible? That's my...<br />Are Canonizations really infallible? That's my question.<br /><br />I personally think Bl. Pope John Paul was a holy man. I don't agree with what he did, as described in this article.<br /><br />Those Assisi meetings are absolutely absurd. I know one thing. That isn't converting them to the One, True, Faith without which there is no salvation. There is no point in praying with pagans and protestants while they pray to their false gods. The Vicar of Christ doing it is especially horrifying.<br /><br />One can resist the errors of a Pope. Saints did it. So can we. I do resist the wrong things he did.<br /><br />He did many great things, too.<br /><br />I will accept whatever the Holy See says. If he is canonized, then he is canonized. Period. If it's infallible, we must accept it. I'll be more than happy to ask for the intercession of another saint.<br /><br />Anonymous said: "But I have to say, if JP2 is canonized, then I don't know what to do. I will have to go back to sedevacantism I guess."<br /><br />That's your answer? You have to be kidding me. The Church is where Peter is. Would you really put your soul in danger? Absurd. The Church is going thru tough times, but none of us should abandon ship. We're in a crisis of Faith. The Church needs us though. Abandoning her is not the solution. Period.<br /><br />BTW, I LOVE your website and blog, Boniface. It is one of my favorites. Please keep up the good work in defense of tradition and Holy Mother Church. God bless you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55370056450088458262013-07-09T12:49:17.894-04:002013-07-09T12:49:17.894-04:00In regard to certain actions of JPII, yes, there a...<br />In regard to certain actions of JPII, yes, there are problems. However, there is also a lot of ignorance about how much he intended, and how much he delegated. We don't know. I certainly don't. Perhaps those here condemning JPII do. Citations, please.<br /><br />I also think there is a tendency for Trads to interpret JPII's writings in the worst light possible. That's hardly reasonable. <br /><br />I am a trad-leaning person who grits my teeth at most NO celebrations, and accept most of the trad-critiques of the present day Church. However, there is a lot of rash judgment going on here, and I think it doesn't help the cause of Tradition.Michael Ortizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823627318269572922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-20756397110374492422013-07-08T17:33:13.402-04:002013-07-08T17:33:13.402-04:00I just wanted to say that I agree with you that I ...I just wanted to say that I agree with you that I am confused about the canonization, as well. <br /><br />It frustrates me, because it seems like it was a popularity issue that was partly the cause for the quick canonization. What about other popes? I'm sure there are other popes that may deserve this honor. <br /><br />I suppose I just don't get it. ESPECIALLY with the Islam part. Islam is the cause of so many terrible sufferings and much martyrdom in our times. Is it possible that he didn't know that? Ginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-81575460432374130922013-07-08T16:59:38.290-04:002013-07-08T16:59:38.290-04:00I was a sedevacantist of sorts from approximately ...I was a sedevacantist of sorts from approximately 2003-2010, mainly because of the bull "Cum ex apostolatus officio". (I believed that the sacraments of the Novus ordo were still valid, that the body of the church still existed, that all valid Novus ordo bishops had supplied jurisdiction because of needs of the faithful, but that the church was without Christ's vicar) Because of Boniface's excellent blog and the old "AthanasiusCM" blog, I began to incline toward the view that the Benedict XVI was a valid Pope. I was upset when JP2 was beatified--but I consoled myself with the thought it only gave permission for a local cult, and that infallibility was not at stake. It could be an imprudent permission granted by a valid pope, but not proof of an invalid papacy.<br /><br /> But I have to say, if JP2 is canonized, then I don't know what to do. I will have to go back to sedevacantism I guess. Canonizations bind the faithful to honor and regard the canonized as saint, a man of heroic virtue.<br /><br />I think JP2's papacy was the worst, an abomination really. he relentless preached all of the modern errors. I cannot honor this man as a saint.<br /><br />God help us all! God Help us all! Please guide us in these dangerous times! With your grace, we will not despair!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74362086378791831352013-07-08T14:08:49.675-04:002013-07-08T14:08:49.675-04:00Everyone here probably realizes this but I will sa...Everyone here probably realizes this but I will say it.<br /><br />Canonizing these two men will set us back in this war or at the very least will slow us down – it will help to entrench the enemies of the Church in some ways; especially those in Catholic education who call themselves Catholic and are poisoned with neo-Modernists tendencies or full blown heresy.<br /><br />However, there are some things you can use in JPII against them. But I still feel this mixed-bag Pope will slow the recovery form the crisis down to some degree.<br />Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-39955784645804843142013-07-08T12:28:59.561-04:002013-07-08T12:28:59.561-04:00Spartacus,
Yes, that is the problem we find ourse...Spartacus,<br /><br />Yes, that is the problem we find ourselves in. <br /><br />There is a certain ambiguity here with how the actions of saints are either imitated or not imitated. On the one hand, "JP2 is a saint, so we ought to do X,Y, and Z." On the other hand, sometimes with other issues, "Yeah, so-and-so was a saint so that's okay for them but not for us." <br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2010/04/st-catherine-of-siena-and-gregory-xi.htmlBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74961906983419091242013-07-08T12:15:43.728-04:002013-07-08T12:15:43.728-04:00Dear Brother Boniface. But we both know that inter...Dear Brother Boniface. But we both know that interfaith prayer will forever be defended by citing the example of Pope Saint John Paul II; <i> He did it and he is a Saint so there is nothing wrong with it</i><br /><br />So what if the 260 or so Popes who preceded him would not have been caught dead doing that, that is all now changed.<br /><br />Bye bye Mortalium Animos. It has been vacated by the actions of Pope Saint John Paul II but, always remember, that even though everything has changed nothing is different.<br /><br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-33662437017612339992013-07-08T11:12:06.828-04:002013-07-08T11:12:06.828-04:00Spartacus,
When a saint is canonized, it means th...Spartacus,<br /><br />When a saint is canonized, it means that at the very minimum their heroic virtues are worthy of imitation. In the case of popes, not their policies or personal gestures. John Paul II's kissing of the Koran does not mandate imitation any more than Eugene IV asking the patriarch of Constantinople to kiss his feet at Florence-Ferrara mandates imitation. Both were perhaps excessive gestures. So, no, not everything a saint does is meant to be imitated, but only those things in which they demonstrated heroic virtue that contributed to their sanctity.<br /><br />That is why this is so bad - is JP2 kissing the Koran a demonstration of "heroic virtue" or was this a lapse in judgment and poor policy? We know the answer, but how will the majority of the faithful, already so poorly catechized, know the difference? Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-42175227476748159742013-07-08T11:06:55.162-04:002013-07-08T11:06:55.162-04:00Pelarius,
See, that's the sort of confusion I...Pelarius,<br /><br />See, that's the sort of confusion I'm talking about. Peter's actions you mention, with the exception of one, took place before his conversion, before the Church was even empowered by the Holy Spirit, so they hardly serve your point.<br /><br />The issue with Peter refusing to eat with the Gentiles is a perfect example of what I mean. Yes, he failed there. But it was a momentary lapse in judgment due to human weakness (desire to look good or impress a certain group), and as far as we know, Peter did not do it again after Paul rebuked him.<br /><br />But, can you imagine if Peter not only refused to eat with the Gentiles, but continued to do so deliberately year after year? Despite being rebuked by Paul? Despite the fact that Christian teaching as it was then understood taught something contrary? Can you imagine if not eating with Gentiles was made a cornerstone of his papacy? It would be totally different, because we'd be talking not about faults or shortcomings but about policy, which is what the issue is with JP2.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64682981071898267922013-07-08T10:42:30.121-04:002013-07-08T10:42:30.121-04:00Thanks Boniface.
JPII's pontificate was radic...Thanks Boniface.<br /><br />JPII's pontificate was radical to say the least. According to John Salza JPII was blessed with cow feces on his forehead in Madras 1986 by a "shiva priestess" and then drank voodoo potion in Fiji the same year. He may have opened himself up to the diabolical with these and other documented activities. His theology was a profound rupture from the past sometimes in a subtle manner, sometimes not so subtle and has helped contribute to the confused current state of the Church. There is a book available in Amazon kindle where Fr Patrick De La Rocque highlights the new theology of JPII and how it usurps Catholic Christianity as we have always known. <br /><br />On his desk JPII had the book "Meditations on the Tarot", Balthasar's favorite book and where the author (later revealed as Valentin Tomberg) converted to Catholicism from the esoteric school of Rudolf Steiner and continued to believe in reincarnation and universal salvation nevertheless. The same author also said the concept of an eternal Hell was barbaric and from memory such a God a monster and I think we can see these influences in JPII's theology.<br /><br />For the photo of Meditations on JPIIs desk scroll down on the following link:<br />http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/Wojtyla&Tarot.htm<br /><br />"Sources cited in MOT are many the most common one is the Bible, followed by an array of saints, theologians, mystics, philosophers, occultists, and other writers, notably including Henri Bergson, Buddha, Goethe, Jung, Kant, Eliphas Lévi, Nietzsche, Fabre d'Olivet, Origen, Papus, Joséphin Péladan, Philip of Lyons, Plato, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Anthony the Great, St. Augustine, St. Bonaventura, St. Dionysius the Areopagite, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Ávila, St. Thomas Aquinas, Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin, Saint-Yves d'Alveydre, Dr. Rudolf Steiner, Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Hermes Trismegistus, and Oswald Wirth"<br /><br />The above listed authors in the work give an indication of the religious syncretism that marred JPII's papacy. Unfortunately he didn't follow Tomberg's advise who decried the loss of Latin and the old Mass.<br /><br />Traditionalist priests didn't fare well in his reign - whether he set the structures to allow this or not is debatable. I suspect he was well versed on the problems within the Church but chose not to investigate further - I have a photo taken in the late 80's of the trad Jesuit Fr Vincent Miceli pleading with JPII over some issue. Miceli was a fiery Catholic who didn't pull punches - when meeting JPII he knew it his chance to tell someone who COULD make a difference JPII looked unimpressed and disbelieving. What would have been heroic would have been for JPII to have implored non Catholics to convert (that is not so comfortable), to have not traveled so much but stay at the Vatican and clean house. The new Catholicism is easy, the old one isn't.Jameyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523915974208712573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-72849827240342605912013-07-08T10:25:12.853-04:002013-07-08T10:25:12.853-04:00Dear Boniface. As it is that Canonisations are in...Dear Boniface. As it is that Canonisations are infallible, once he is Canonised does that mean his actions truly are to be imitated?<br /><br />I will accept that he is in Heaven but the idea that he and Pope Saint Pius X acted faithfully within Tradition is risible.<br /><br />That being so, what are we to make of our situation as Catholics?<br /><br />This is simply a splendid post and you really got down to the brass tacks I choose to step over pretending they were not there.<br /><br />Kudos.<br /><br />P.S. In California, I was in an old store that still had the brass tacks nailed into the floor that he owner used to measure items<br /><br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-45269477955349141772013-07-08T09:26:44.400-04:002013-07-08T09:26:44.400-04:00Then it's a good thing that the first pope was...Then it's a good thing that the first pope wasn't canonized. He knew Christ directly but tried to talk him out of the passion,publicly denied him, and went against his own public decrees against the Judaizers. That might have caused come confusion.Pelariusnoreply@blogger.com