tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post7359894632624892174..comments2024-03-18T15:16:08.163-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: More Straw-Men: Fr. Longnecker on Pope FrancisBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-68570563155695982312013-03-23T19:08:31.779-04:002013-03-23T19:08:31.779-04:00Very good analysis, Boniface, and I agree with pre...Very good analysis, Boniface, and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I usually don't read Fr. Longnecker as I think he's somewhat typical of a convert from a Protestant denomination ~ not entirely getting the whole Catholic-thing through and through because, well, he was an Anglican until recently. <br /><br />A few years ago on a traditional blog, he was promoting a pilgrimage to Italy that I inquired into. I explained that I was a traditional Catholic and wondered if he would be offering for the pilgrims the Traditional Mass. He responded that, no, he wouldn't because he doesn't know how to say it yet. An honest answer which told me that this pilgrimage wasn't for me. <br /><br />He then attempted to convince me that I would love the trip anyway because they'd be visiting several monasteries where I'd "get to hear some Latin in parts of the Mass". I explained that I wasn't looking for a Mass that had "some Latin", but the Traditional Latin Mass. I had the distinct impression that he thought that the issue was us folks who like to hear Latin and maybe throw in some incense and we'll be happy. <br /><br />Perhaps his understanding has expanded since then of what "traditional Catholic" means but as I say, I haven't read much from him since then.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08481730297658525937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-34292199876033501192013-03-23T17:21:52.102-04:002013-03-23T17:21:52.102-04:00Kneeling Catholic:
Attempts to ban traditional li...Kneeling Catholic:<br /><br />Attempts to ban traditional liturgical practices is a sign o liturgical liberalism, but not all liturgical liberals try to ban things. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-42953909475410004102013-03-23T09:49:18.146-04:002013-03-23T09:49:18.146-04:00Wow! Why is is that anything about Pope Francis ge...Wow! Why is is that anything about Pope Francis gets back to bashing Benedict XVI? Benedict XVI, Pope Emeritus, deserves our praise for what he did in regard to the liturgy.<br /><br />My comment is actually about this article. ;) I think it's terrific and your critic is spot on! I agree with you completely, Boniface!<br /><br />Fr. S.A.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19687099384445924312013-03-23T08:06:08.359-04:002013-03-23T08:06:08.359-04:00Conservatives consider Pope Francis as a man absen...Conservatives consider Pope Francis as a man absent integrity; that is, they think that as Pope he will act differently than he did as Abp.<br /><br />It really is not a flattering portrait of how they think of him. They, apparently, did not think that what he did in the past was genuine.<br /><br />The sad reality is, however, that he will transform the Papacy and the Papacy will not transform him - that is how it works since Pope John 23rd.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-12536487911896356282013-03-23T01:20:04.614-04:002013-03-23T01:20:04.614-04:00Hello Bonifatius!
I do think Fr. L has a point wh...Hello Bonifatius!<br /><br />I do think Fr. L has a point when he equates liturgical liberals with those who want to impose-on and ban things. The p-t-r-t, people-that-run-things, ran roughshod over the laity to give us 'the spirit of V II'. They achieved their reforms by bullying.. recall the penultimate GIRM's restrictions on kneeling for Communion, and how those who dared to kneel were to be called out and 'catechized'.<br /><br />That's a ban, right?Kneeling Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797815971446807261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-64949720000519505392013-03-22T22:29:16.747-04:002013-03-22T22:29:16.747-04:00Nick,
I don't see any problem with trying to ...Nick,<br /><br />I don't see any problem with trying to bring more reverence into the NO or incorporating elements of the EF into it...anything like that done to the NO could only benefit it. I would think the only problem would be things going the other way, from the NO into the EF. That would be the dreaded hybrid. But I don't mind seeing the NO "dressed up." A dressed up NO, while not the EF, is better than a dressed down NO. I attend a dressed up NO Mass regularly. I think the real problem is mixing the other way.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-66911032380677785892013-03-22T22:27:14.851-04:002013-03-22T22:27:14.851-04:00I have read some of it, but its been awhile. Yes, ...I have read some of it, but its been awhile. Yes, the thing about everything Francis does is it has the <i>potential</i> to be really good, if the content is good. <br /><br />I did a post about this last week (http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2013/03/i-have-intentionally-not-posted.html) that things can go really good or really bad. I see his bluntness as a strength that he can use in his favor if he uses it properly. I said:<br /><br /><i>"here we have a pope who will not communicate in 95 page encyclicals full of philosophical jargon, but who is capable of truly speaking plainly and directly, which is something the Church sorely needs. If the pope can employ this candor in the defense of truth, he will quickly become the scourge of the progressives and will teach the truths of the faith very clearly.</i>Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55344508000872785012013-03-22T22:08:01.673-04:002013-03-22T22:08:01.673-04:00I too am confused by the unlimited praise traditio...I too am confused by the unlimited praise traditionalists grant Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI after his abdication. He was a child of the Second Vatican Council at its best, but a child of the Council none the less.<br /><br />James Larson's brilliant and ongoing article-series <i>War Against Being</i> (www.waragainstbeing.com) documents just how far his heterodoxy goes.<br /><br />Have you read it, Boniface?<br /><br />Alas, Pope Francis' terseness, while refreshing, is no indication of a richer whole. His speeches are, so far, very much hit and miss. See his Address to the Diplomatic Corps - as documented on Rorate-Caeli: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/pope-no-true-peace-without-truth.html - to balance out the one given to the Cardinals.Master Stormcrownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55366293133823032532013-03-22T21:22:32.066-04:002013-03-22T21:22:32.066-04:00Stormcrow:
Understood. At any rate, it is Longne...Stormcrow: <br /><br />Understood. At any rate, it is Longnecker that said that, not me. I do give room to allow for prudential errors that don't necessarily imply heterodoxy.<br /><br />Nick, goods points. I would not say BXVI is a Traditionalist, but I would say he had us on a general trajectory towards Tradition - and freeing up the old Mass was a huge thing. It is not that BXVI was "traditionalist", but that he had us on a path towards liturgical excellence that now we might deviate from. I do agree that one great thing about Francis is the bluntness of his speech; I have often complained on here of the verbosity of Magisterial documents. Hopefully, Francis will simply call it like it is.<br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74422042244246770562013-03-22T20:59:01.478-04:002013-03-22T20:59:01.478-04:00There is a serious problem going around with peopl...There is a serious problem going around with people labeling Francis a Liberal. You touched upon the problem with your Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi comment but I'm trying to get people (especially traditionalists) to recognize and address the heart of the problem. <br /><br />The heart of the problem with labeling Pope Francis a Liberal is that they are using Benedict as the 'standard' of traditionalism. That's very misleading and erroneous because Benedict was not really a traditionalists in the proper sense. So all this 'fear' that Francis is tearing down all the 'progress' Benedict made is really bogus. <br /><br />Benedict's Pomp, especially with dressing up the New Mass, was mistaken by Conservative Catholics and many Traditionalist Catholics as restoring tradition. That's inaccurate. The New Mass should be done with great respect, but dressing it up with traditional vestments does not have anything to do with restoring tradition. All that does is put us on the road to the dreaded Hybrid-Mass. Dressing up the New Mass to make it "Traditional" is really faux-traditionalism and reminds me of the "Lipstick on a pig" comment. <br /><br />So Pope Francis is not 'tearing down' all this hard work of Benedict. I prefer keeping the New Mass very respectful but not super decked-out so as not to confuse it with the Traditional Mass. <br /><br />If Benedict were ONLY a "Liturgical Traditionalist" (something impossible in light of Lex Oranidi, Lex Credendi, as you rightly noted), then he would have done things like forbade the 'experiments' of Communion in the hand and female altar boys. Other traditionalist things he could have done is forbade Chancellors from being laymen, spoken in plain terms about mortal sin, the reality of Satan, Confession, etc. But I don't really recall these things. I'm not here to bash Benedict at all, but it's sad that his homilies were often very 'academically' presented with leaving us up to having to read between the lines. Pope Francis' homilies so far are already showing some teeth. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74061939380650023782013-03-22T20:15:43.411-04:002013-03-22T20:15:43.411-04:00I didn't say that the distinction doesn't ...I didn't say that the distinction doesn't matter. I said that the event (blessing) coupled with the following lack of events (no (immediate) excuse) - that is, what actually took place, regardless of what explanation was put forward at a much later date - prove that not everything about Pope Francis "indicates that he is [...] completely orthodox in theology and moral teaching".Master Stormcrownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-71011983564278037292013-03-22T19:49:08.178-04:002013-03-22T19:49:08.178-04:00And, while believing in Medjugorje might mean you&...And, while believing in Medjugorje might mean you've allowed yourself to be duped, it doesn't mean you are heterodox. That's why even though I disagree with him on that I wouldn't hold that against him as if he were a dissenter or something.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52664161295809847752013-03-22T19:47:03.890-04:002013-03-22T19:47:03.890-04:00These distinctions do matter. It matters tremendou...These distinctions do matter. It matters tremendously whether Bergoglio asks to be blessed by a Protestant or whether the Protestant blessed him without his knowledge or approval; the distinction informs out judgment about what "it" is that happened exactly. I agree he should not have been there. I agree he should have offered an explanation. But you can't just say these sorts of distinctions don't matter. When we fail to recognize them, it makes us look bad.<br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-50238992534280072992013-03-22T19:25:58.846-04:002013-03-22T19:25:58.846-04:00Come on. You're not a stupid person and we bot...Come on. You're not a stupid person and we both know what that post is hinting at, even though it "officially" stays neutral. But what is neutral when the Bishop has condemned etc etc - you know all of this. A even nominally prudent man would have been very quiet about what he'd seen. That post is nothing but support for Medjugorje.<br /><br />Your clarification also makes me want to say "Come on." It happened, it's on picture. Did then Archbishop Bergoglio sent out an excuse to the Catholic faithful and explain the picture? No. It happened, some people have reacted, a weak excuse was made.Master Stormcrownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-89041140714839907392013-03-22T16:30:44.099-04:002013-03-22T16:30:44.099-04:00Stormcrow,
Lord knows I am no supporter of Medjug...Stormcrow,<br /><br />Lord knows I am no supporter of Medjugorje, but the fact that the man went there, had an experience and does not know what to think about it is not grounds to have something against him. If he were a serious promoter of it, maybe, but just because he went there doesn't scratch him out of my book. My own mother went there, much to my chagrin...<br /><br />Also, a point of clarity; Regarding the picture you speak of, apparently what happened was Bergoglio knelt to receive a blessing from Fr. Cantalamessa, and I guess the Protestant put his hand on the Cardinal's head and blessed him of his own initiative without Bergoglio knowing it was going to happen or asking for it. I still think he should not have been there in the first place, but that is what happened.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-85626497164714713432013-03-22T14:09:16.999-04:002013-03-22T14:09:16.999-04:00"[...] everything Benedict XVI did will remai..."[...] everything Benedict XVI did will remain in place."<br />Except the altar in St. Peters!<br /><br />"Indeed, everything about Pope Francis indicates that he is not only completely orthodox in theology and moral teaching [...]"<br />Oh, really? Everything? This is simply not true. See: picture of him kneeling and getting blessed by some silly type of protestant.<br /><br />"[...] <b>his</b> simplicity of life and <b>his</b> example of poverty means that he may not be as concerned about the “finer things” in <b>Catholic</b> worship."<br />Did Fr. Longenecker use the right word here? It seems he should rather have replaced "Catholic" with another "his"! What saint or holy person, ever, has, because of their own humility, simplicity, or poverty, "confused" that with "not being concered" about the "finer things" in WORSHIPPING GOD?<br /><br />It's barely been a week and I am beginning to hate the word "humble". It's like "dialogue" and "pastoral" all over again.Master Stormcrow strikes againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52511420027926018522013-03-22T13:36:14.830-04:002013-03-22T13:36:14.830-04:00"I usually read Fr. Longnecker with delight a..."I usually read Fr. Longnecker with delight and have no real bones to pick with him."<br /><br />Allow me.<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2011/10/the-day-i-saw-the-sun-spin.htmlMaster Stormcrownoreply@blogger.com