tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post8012248233994550724..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: The Lost Practice of Christian ShunningBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-40828203020322634972020-06-28T18:38:58.830-04:002020-06-28T18:38:58.830-04:00Interesting article and responses.
A good example...Interesting article and responses. <br />A good example of shunning is found in series 7 episode 20 (1991) of the TV series "Murder She Wrote" and portrays it among the Amish. Though not the main plot it illystrates both sides of this argument as well as a hypocrite in the Amish Community. It's extremely well done. I recommend it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00249701055974864152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-80375395944663105892019-06-30T17:30:52.406-04:002019-06-30T17:30:52.406-04:00the amount of sour grapes in this post, and the la...the amount of sour grapes in this post, and the lack of people who understood it. the point is, shunning may be of last resort, but it is acceptable. if your left hand causes you to sin, cut it, right? should this not make sense in extreme situations regarding your social circle? for example, your roommate is a drug consumer and his vice distracts your life even if he keeps to himself. obviously loving attempts at conversion should not cease, even if you have to call the cops on the person or an intervention. so the OP is right in this regard.<br /><br />yes, extreme/unfair shunning can happen. and perhaps, unlike the OP, i would invite gay cousin or atheist uncle to Christmas supper. but the opposite problem is also there, of being so "tolerant" that we lose our discipline. thus of what point would it be for the lost sheep to be with us, if we would be as lost as they? perhaps this problem is even stronger at the moment, because right now we let gay cousin and atheist uncle have more importance and hijack the dinner table and public square. <br /><br />and, it is specially worse if all the valid advice is "take it up with the pastor", as if "pastors" cared at the moment... or worse, if it all devolves into another TLM vs NO argument, as if the argument was strictly about the vernacular and the altar placement...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-59579456592967089922018-06-25T14:55:33.403-04:002018-06-25T14:55:33.403-04:00In J.M.J.
I hope I can translate and post some of...In J.M.J.<br /><br />I hope I can translate and post some of your articles, please tell me if you are ok with it.<br />God bless!Daryahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03884320460664862823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-22454222168479092932018-04-22T13:43:05.784-04:002018-04-22T13:43:05.784-04:00Why not burn them at the stake? It was good enough...Why not burn them at the stake? It was good enough then, it is good enough now.Ploni Almoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-62454345435044534852018-04-22T13:40:49.637-04:002018-04-22T13:40:49.637-04:00You ask how would this shunning look like in pract...You ask how would this shunning look like in practice? It would look like a concentration camp. This is what the Soviet Gulag was; the righteous excluding from their midst the evil ones who were not good enough for their idea of a good society and especially not an ideal one, "a holy society."Ploni Almoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55704333861119996152017-07-05T16:06:53.777-04:002017-07-05T16:06:53.777-04:00^That sounds all fuzzy and warm but please address...^That sounds all fuzzy and warm but please address the actual Bible verses from the New Testament that command shunning. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-59220255367335035892017-07-05T12:56:33.973-04:002017-07-05T12:56:33.973-04:00Please don't encourage excluding others.
This ...Please don't encourage excluding others.<br />This is tantamount to bullying.<br />Disdain cannot attract others, but eventually love can - perhaps gradually over time.<br />God knows the complexities of situations and circumstances; people are not omniscient.<br />Is human judgement presumption - a temptation to know good and evil and usurp God's prerogative?<br />If so it is like the cause of Original sin - which separated people from God and cost them paradise.<br />God is perfect, and will do what is called for at the right time, in the fullness of time.<br />Judgement and punishment are for God alone, as he can read each person's heart/ intent.<br /><br />http://www.usccb.org/bible/romans/12<br />Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”q<br />q. [12:19] Lv 19:18; Dt 32:35, 41; Mt 5:39; 1 Cor 6:6–7; Heb 10:30.<br /><br />http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/5<br />Love of Enemies.*43b “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’c44But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,45that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.46For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors* do the same?47And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?*48So be perfect,* just as your heavenly Father is perfect.d<br /><br />b. [5:4] Is 61:2–3; Rev 21:4.<br />c. [5:5] Gn 13:15; Ps 37:11.<br />d. [5:7] 18:33; Jas 2:13.<br /><br />http://www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/13<br /><br /><br />1If I speak in human and angelic tongues* but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.a2And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.b3If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing....<br /><br />[Love] does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.f<br /><br />8* Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.g<br /><br />a. [13:1] 8:1; 16:14; Rom 12:9–10; 13:8–10.<br />b. [13:2] 4:1; 14:2 / 1:5; 8:1–3; 12:8 / Mt 17:20; 21:21; Col 2:3.<br />f. [13:7] Prv 10:12; 1 Pt 4:8.<br />g. [13:12] 2 Cor 5:7; Heb 11:1 / 2 Tm 2:19; 1 Jn 3:2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47391447398412978982016-12-05T22:33:26.125-05:002016-12-05T22:33:26.125-05:00What evidence do you have that you are positively ...What evidence do you have that you are positively being shunned for that reason? If nobody is talking to you or explaining it, how do you know that is the reason? I went to a church for 5 years and not one person ever talked to me, but I never felt like I was being "shunned." I felt like I was bad at making friends, and other people were bad at reaching out.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24132614361308004562016-12-05T22:31:03.884-05:002016-12-05T22:31:03.884-05:00The lack of empathy in this blog-post is appalling...The lack of empathy in this blog-post is appalling... I experience this type of shunning at the parish I attend because I am not Catholic and, because of the fact that I am the only person who does not receive communion (out of respect) I stick out like a sore thumb. If I didn't enjoy the Mass, I would probably stop attending because people like you have made it very difficult to be there.<br /><br />I can respect that you and I will differ on doctrine, but I cannot respect the exclusivity because it does not belong in a religion based in love and sacrifice. How would you feel if someone shunned you for being Catholic and thought that the only way to "cure" you was to cease all contact in the hope that you would change your ways? I highly doubt it would cause you to re-evaluate your actions. I bet someone in that situation would call it persecution, so how does doing that to someone who believes differently than you make you the better person?<br /><br /><br />You know, I've always thought the Catholic traditions are beautiful, but the majority of the people defending them do so with such a sickening attitude that I now understand why people are turning away from the Catholic Church...theworldendsdailyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13410605381727576902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-79275392112177801982016-07-06T07:43:57.284-04:002016-07-06T07:43:57.284-04:00Matthew-
You should never kick your child out jus...Matthew-<br /><br />You should never kick your child out just for identifying himself as gay or coming out as gay. That would not be helpful. It's not about whether he is gay, but what he does. If he had entered into a homosexual relationship and was very open about it, that might be a different matter, because now we are talking about very concrete actions.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4218166581438417132016-06-27T20:53:24.521-04:002016-06-27T20:53:24.521-04:00Boniface, what I'm wondering, though, is if yo...Boniface, what I'm wondering, though, is if you cut ties with someone, there is a danger that such a person may never place himself near anything or anyone holy again, and might lead themselves to reprobation.<br /><br />What I want to know specifically is this:<br /><br />What if a parent finds out that his or her son defines himself as "gay"?. While in the Prodigal Son parable, the younger son went out, it was his own choice because he didn't want to live according to that which the father wanted. If he did he never would have wished his father were dead by wanting the inheritance.<br /><br />If you have a child who cannot live on their own, and he doesn't want to change, it may simply not know what to do about his attraction, would it make sense to not kick your child out if you yourself are devout?. If you read the bible, pray the rosary, pray deliverance prayers, and your child still lives with you, he might be in a better situation to repent if he lived on his own, especially if it's because he was disowned.<br /><br />I don't know much on the exegesis, and since this post is old I don't know if you'll respond to me, at least right away. But what do you think?Mathew Leonettihttps://m.facebook.com/MatthewEnricoJoseph?ref=bookmarksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-63602947851371649202014-08-03T20:45:41.400-04:002014-08-03T20:45:41.400-04:00Shunning is done for the good of the soul of the p...Shunning is done for the good of the soul of the person shunned and the souls of those who would otherwise be scandalised by his public sinning. As taught in the Faith, it follows from ones duty to love others. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19123485610325869742014-08-01T10:22:06.022-04:002014-08-01T10:22:06.022-04:00Bollocks,
While I concede that the situation envi...Bollocks,<br /><br />While I concede that the situation envisioned in Matthew may be reserved to the pastor, 1 Corinthians and 2 John are clearly directed to lay people.<br /><br />Sounds like you do not deny the practice, only stress that it should be a last resort and not had recourse to lightly. I would not disagree with that.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-87614746588123837252014-07-30T12:31:46.842-04:002014-07-30T12:31:46.842-04:00Boniface,
By immersing yourself in the letter of ...Boniface,<br /><br />By immersing yourself in the letter of the law, you miss the point. A common error for recent Catholic of the Roman tradition.<br /><br />Note how in Matthew 18:15-17, shunning is the last recourse of action.<br /><br />There is a right time and circumstance for "shunning" but it should only be used as an absolute last resort and on the initiative of the presiding pastor. <br /><br />Overall what I'm more bothered by is that, of all things we could be discussing, why is this a priority? I have seen what happens when ill-educated trads implement it. The consequences are horrific.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-72043471161907293452014-07-30T12:21:29.664-04:002014-07-30T12:21:29.664-04:00Dear Brain Surgeon and Boniface,
I grew up to a c...Dear Brain Surgeon and Boniface,<br /><br />I grew up to a church where shunning was the norm. I am since glad to be done with all the unchristian nastiness, backbiting,and gossip. To implement this in a mainstream respectable traddie church would be ultimately disastrous. <br /><br />There is nothing "masculine" about mantilla-clad churchladies - their scowling faces eerily resembling a Hollywood governess - making snide comments at people they deem unworthy ("Your dress is AT the knee?! Modernist!!!") and driving people away as the emasculated and whipped husbands nod along, frightened of their harpy wives. Nothing I just said is hyperbole or exaggeration. <br /><br />Consider this: how many deviants and immoral people probably made up the converts to the faith in apostolic times? How many of them likely still struggled (confession was public and vices don't just go away overnight) long after their conversion? We are in a pagan era unprecedented for at least 1700 years. How many sinners need to be brought into the fold and charitably rehabilitated? Shunning should be the last thing on the table right now. Traddies will use it as a first recourse to root anyone they see as "imperfect" (one wonders sometimes how many stones would have been cast if Christ had said "let he of you without sin cast the first stone." to a group of trads).<br /><br />Furthermore, the fact that a priest can ban someone from the congregation makes shunning entirely redundant. Fr. Schell - who kept the Latin Mass and the faith alive in the diocese of the public apostate Roger Mahoney - had a good philosophy: "If you have a problem with someone take it up with me."<br /><br />To advocate this practice is to miss the point.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-20781976885581704112014-07-30T12:05:15.124-04:002014-07-30T12:05:15.124-04:00Lord of Bollocks,
If you believe my position to b...Lord of Bollocks,<br /><br />If you believe my position to be incorrect, please provide an alternate exegesis for the biblical texts I cited and how they ought to be applied today.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-45921496033798514852014-07-30T12:00:58.683-04:002014-07-30T12:00:58.683-04:00Dear Brain Surgeon and Boniface (as an aside, I do...Dear Brain Surgeon and Boniface (as an aside, I don't know why you would name yourself after such a worldly and disastrous pontiff),<br /><br />I came from a traddie church where shunning was not only practiced, but the norm. Never again have I encountered such a cesspool of unchristian backbiting, gossip, and namecalling. For any mainstream trad groups to practice this would be disastrous. <br /><br />Trust me, there is nothing "masculine" about mantilla clad churchladies dressed like Laura Ingalls (great Protestant fashion sense right there) sniping snide comments with the look of a Hollywood movie governess while the whipped and emasculated husbands go along, fearful of their harpy wives. Nothing in that last sentence was hyperbole or exaggerration. <br /><br />Consider this. How many of the early Christian converts in apostolic times must have led immoral and deviant lives? How many of them probably still struggled after conversion (a vice doesn't just go away overnight)? We are in a pagan era unheard of for 1700 or so years. Shunning is about the last thing that should be on the table, considering all the sinners that need to be rehabilitated and brought into the fold in charity. Allowing shunning will, in practice, encourage traddies to implement it to anyone with the slightest public shortfalling without even attempting to resolve the problem through other means. Such is human nature.<br /><br />And, honestly, the ability of the pastor to ban problematic people from the church makes shunning entirely redundant. These sort of things should be handled ultimately by the pastor, if anyone.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-5883288728422963192014-07-27T16:58:43.584-04:002014-07-27T16:58:43.584-04:00Boniface, I'm with you 100%.
However, the vas...Boniface, I'm with you 100%.<br /><br />However, the vast majority of our Catholic hierarchy appears not to be....<br /><br />In my view, in an official capacity at least, Catholic tolerance toward sin, evil, dissent, and error - i.e. the outright rejection of "Christian shunning" - was promoted by St. Pope John XXIII himself. In his opening speech at the 2nd Vatican Council, he emphasized:<br /><br /><b>"But today we prefer to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. We meet the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of our teachings rather than by condemning others. In fact, error today is so obvious when it emerges that people themselves reject it. "</b><br /><br />And, our present Holy Father is also quite reticent to condemn at least some obvious and gravely evil acts (recall his famous "Who am I to judge?" statement after the most recent World Youth Day in Brazil).... <br /><br />So, for much of the past 50 years, it seems quite clear to me that our Catholic leadership has consistently and vigorously rejected the premise of your insightful blog post. The scathing criticisms from your anonymous commentators merely confirm that Catholics have been strongly urged over that period to <b>reject</b> "Christian shunning". From their spiritual guidance, it seems that our Catholics leaders could really care less how much one can find as support the inspired words recorded from Our Lord Himself and His Apostles on this subject.<br /><br />What is a Catholic, who is striving to be faithful and holy, to do? <br /><br />As you have already experienced in the comments above, for us to embrace "shunning" is to be tagged with the moniker of being disobedient to the direction (and the implied commands) of those in rightful spiritual authority over us. See our obligations as defined by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical "Diuturnum Illud", paragraph 15:<br /><br /><b>"The one only reason which men have for not obeying is when anything is demanded of them which is openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law, for it is equally unlawful to command to do anything in which the law of nature or the will of God is violated."</b><br /><br />Would the act of embracing and practicing "Christian shunning" meet the criteria of Pope Leo XIII for legitimate disobedience, or would it be an illegitimate act of willful disobedience to the recent guidance, direction, and commands of our rightful Catholic spiritual leadership?<br /><br />Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,<br /><br />Steve BQuovadis7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16936658621864993364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-31648969920547256862014-07-20T03:45:28.798-04:002014-07-20T03:45:28.798-04:00Thanks for this. I distinctly remember being chewe...Thanks for this. I distinctly remember being chewed out on a Catholic forum for suggesting that heretics are a danger to all souls and that a smaller community of devout Catholics is healthier than a larger one filled with Catholics who pick and chose which teachings they want to follow. I believe a big part of the problem is that priests are afraid to condemn sin during their homilies for fear of driving people away. To suggest that maybe the Church is better off without these people was met with so much anger and harassment that the thread had to be closed. One of the commenters cited the missing sheep parable as anonymous above did...I am under the impression that the proper interpretation according to Catholic sources (St. Hilary, St. Bede, St. Gregory...) is that the lost sheep is symbolic of all of mankind after the fall, not of some individual heretic/unrepentant sinner who left the flock of sinless Catholics (as if such a thing exists). The 99 righteous who have no need of redemption are the angels.<br /><br />Perhaps consider moderating comments to ensure polite, respectful discussion. Practically all of the people who commented in disagreement had nothing insightful to say about the topic, and reading all these rude comments and insults from people who claim to be Catholics is, in a word, shocking.Emilynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-41632818911338989652014-07-18T18:45:59.748-04:002014-07-18T18:45:59.748-04:00Isn't shunning what you people do anyway?Isn't shunning what you people do anyway?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-42377344908121465242014-07-17T10:43:03.867-04:002014-07-17T10:43:03.867-04:00If you shun a transgressor you have written them o...<i>If you shun a transgressor you have written them off and broken all communication. What incentive have they from you to amend their ways? None.</i><br /><br />There are not a few people who think themselves more influential than the Grace of the Holy Ghost.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-85248718983298954022014-07-14T19:03:26.751-04:002014-07-14T19:03:26.751-04:00I don't doubt that if any only did post a comp...I don't doubt that if any only did post a compelling reply to Boniface he would delete it or simply never publish it in the first place. He has a history of doing this....Truthseekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58623038759979951992014-07-12T07:29:12.756-04:002014-07-12T07:29:12.756-04:00Dear Brother Boniface. The anonymous comments are ...Dear Brother Boniface. The anonymous comments are hysterical but they do illustrate the absolute hatred of masculine CatholicismMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-37897058317925509862014-07-11T10:26:52.876-04:002014-07-11T10:26:52.876-04:00Anonymous,
But it was Jesus Christ Himself who to...Anonymous,<br /><br />But it was Jesus Christ Himself who told us to treat obstinate sinners who refused to listen as "tax collectors or Gentiles." Clearly Jesus did not think this command contradicted His statements about finding the lost sheep.<br /><br />The difference I think is in the obstinacy of the sinner.<br /><br />But, if I am wrong, please tell me the correct way to interpret Matthew 10:12-15, 2 John 1:7-11,1 Corinthians 5:19-13 and Matthew 18:15-17.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-7505548852828441852014-07-11T04:06:14.737-04:002014-07-11T04:06:14.737-04:00If you shun a transgressor you have written them o...If you shun a transgressor you have written them off and broken all communication. What incentive have they from you to amend their ways? None.<br />Christ said if I am not mistaken that he would abandon 99 sheep to go find a single lost one.<br />Your "shunning " proposal flies in the face of that.<br />.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com