tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post1070358379500389768..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Transplanting TraditionBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-39672402635748643782015-07-21T06:09:10.703-04:002015-07-21T06:09:10.703-04:00If you think of original sin before baptism, it wo...If you think of original sin before baptism, it wouldn't - the Blessed Virgin Mary would be the only person not being able to join in - but the "image conveyed" is that of a sinner (personal, not original sense) having converted, which is not applicable to everyone assisting Holy Mass.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-486922175090812682015-07-17T08:30:57.338-04:002015-07-17T08:30:57.338-04:00How would "I once was lost" be contrary ...How would "I once was lost" be contrary to Catholic doctrine?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24010322717205191662015-07-17T08:24:49.284-04:002015-07-17T08:24:49.284-04:00"And, by the criteria of St. Pius X, yes, Mas...<i>"And, by the criteria of St. Pius X, yes, Masses composed by Mozart, Bach, etc. would be forbidden, not because of their personal lives or that they were Protestants, but because of the suppression of the voice by the music and the long musical interludes"</i><br /><br />St Pius X made a very specific allowance for Mozart Masses.<br /><br />They can NOT be used during Holy Mass.<br /><br />They CAN be used as (German translation): "konzertante Gottesverehrung".Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4501170962739952212015-07-17T08:21:53.961-04:002015-07-17T08:21:53.961-04:00The one song which would fit, doctrinally, in Cath...The one song which would fit, doctrinally, in Catholic Mass, would be "Cum bay a".<br /><br />"Cum bay a ma Lor" means "veni hic mi Domine" and is therefore appropriate, doctrinally, in moments like music for Holy Communion.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74618877098747226282015-07-17T08:18:26.962-04:002015-07-17T08:18:26.962-04:00"Though Protestant hymns are not mentioned he...<i>"Though Protestant hymns are not mentioned here, one wonders how a Protestant hymn can conform to the doctrine of the Catholic Faith by "plainly stating' and "explaining it." Amazing Grace might not openly contradict Catholicism (depending on how it is interpreted), but does it "plainly state" and "explain" the Faith?"</i><br /><br />Amazing Grace if sung by all assisting at Mass WOULD contradict Catholic doctrine. Any child as well as St Theresita (Thérèse de Lisieux, of the Child Jesus and Holy Face) would be unable to truly agree with words like "I once was lost".<br /><br />Similarily, someone who was baptised as a child, fell into sin, and then repented could hardly quite honestly sing "han har öppnat perleporten, och bevarat mig som sin", since though Christ really had opened the pearly gates through baptism, He had not all this time preserved him "as his own".<br /><br />Both sings would be much better, in a Catholic setting, if put in different characters in a morality play.<br /><br />Not sure if it would have a very great impact except on Protestants, and not sure if it would be very great even for them, if only Pentecostals and likeminded like "Perleporten" and no Pentecostals like Amazing Grace (which would be more like Calvinist fare).<br /><br />But this would be the possibility in which Catholics could sing these songs without contradicting Catholic doctrine : in a mortality play as solos, depicting different characters, and not all the saved of the Church together.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8930201724715074252012-05-17T15:50:10.127-04:002012-05-17T15:50:10.127-04:00Dear Boniface. I take back what I wrote. The prote...Dear Boniface. I take back what I wrote. The protestants do offer worship; what I had in my mind but did not write was the qualifier "right."<br /><br />http://southernvermontcrank.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-vs-protestant-worship.htmlMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-50135534907414776462012-05-17T07:59:54.403-04:002012-05-17T07:59:54.403-04:00Dear Boniface. I think the song implies such a not...Dear Boniface. I think the song implies such a notion; it implies that he had aught to do with salvation.<br /><br />He was just sorta banging around at sea when God saved him with not even a hint that he had to get on the Ark of Salvation having been prompted to do so by the Holy Ghost.<br /><br />As Saint Augustine said (paraphrase) God created us without our permission but he will not save us without our cooperation -whereas the song is Calvinism summarised.<br /><br />I think we will have to disagree re the putative protestant worship. I do not see how we can call what they do worship unless we reference the classic levels of worship but what me and thee mean by worship does not apply to them.<br /><br />I will look around to see if I saved what I once wrote about that but in the meantime, I love your blog.<br /><br />KudosMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58823715326772809812012-05-16T21:56:36.265-04:002012-05-16T21:56:36.265-04:00The song does not imply that we are saved without ...The song does not imply that we are saved without baptism. Even if you are saved through baptism, you are still saved by grace. In the end, we are all saved sola gratia.<br /><br />@Spartacus - I don't think you can say that Protestants lack all worship, or that what they do is not worship in some sense. They do not have all the elements of grace and salvation, but they have some, and they do have a certain kind of worship - not that that means it is perfect in God's sight, but it is something.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-78772118021583010532012-05-16T19:37:23.494-04:002012-05-16T19:37:23.494-04:00So where's the beef? I don't see anti-Cath...<i>So where's the beef? I don't see anti-Catholicism in "Amazing Grace." I see "Grace alone" that saved a "wretch" like former slave trader John Newton (the writer), and indeed all of us who have no hope of being saved without grace.</i><br /><br />One is saved by Grace without Baptism?<br /><br /> I thought that Mr. Armstrong considered Baptism rather important; I know that Jesus did.<br /><br />Mr. Voris was spot-on and Messrs Shea and Armstrong come across as nit-pickers who are envious of his growing popularityMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-5531658382057715082012-05-16T19:24:09.098-04:002012-05-16T19:24:09.098-04:00Dear Boniface. It is my position that protestants ...Dear Boniface. It is my position that protestants do not have worship because they lack Holy Orders.<br /><br />We Catholics do have worship because we have Holy Orders.<br /><br />The essential protestant ideology holds that all human acts are as bloody rags (menstruation rags) and as such their putative worship (singing, Biblical readings, Sermon, singing) done solely by non-ordained men and women, accrd. to protestant ideology, is an offering of bloody rags to our Triune God because is a purely an act of man.<br /><br />The old prayers of The Raccolta - in more than one of the prayers, identify their lack of worship and grace; "...outside of which neither holiness nor salvation can be found..." (p.500 The Raccolta, Benziger Brothers, Loreto Pubications 2010)Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-84082557638608184972012-05-12T21:16:30.200-04:002012-05-12T21:16:30.200-04:00I probably will now. LOLI probably will now. LOLDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-41247143576512046422012-05-12T20:06:12.770-04:002012-05-12T20:06:12.770-04:00Mr. Armstrong, you're being paranoid. I didn&#...Mr. Armstrong, you're being paranoid. I didn't "deliberately refuse" to provide a link to your rant, but I did tell Boniface's readers that you and Mark Shea had a "hissyfit" about Voris's commentary on Amazing Grace. Since you and Shea are so well known, it wouldn't have presented a great handicap for anyone seeking out your blogs. <br />Boniface, thanks for educating both Mr Armstrong and myself on true Catholic music. I hope it does both of us some good in our understanding of sacred music in worship.Steve "scotju" Daltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17864544146213840928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-1199401573000445082012-05-12T17:17:37.986-04:002012-05-12T17:17:37.986-04:00Haha...didn't read the piece? Well that explai...Haha...didn't read the piece? Well that explains why I didn't think your comments quite fit, then!<br /><br />I'll just sit out then!Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-69899994290305920022012-05-12T16:16:56.972-04:002012-05-12T16:16:56.972-04:00I was responding specifically to Dalton. I didn...I was responding specifically to Dalton. I didn't even read your piece. :-)<br /><br />Again, folks insist on talking about a paper of mine without either 1) reading it, or 2) understanding it; let alone supposedly "refuting" it.<br /><br />In it, I argued that there was nothing that I could find in "Amazing Grace" that was 'anti-Catholic" (as Voris claimed; not merely non-Catholic). I wrote:<br /><br />"Catholics believe in Grace Alone, just as Protestants do. . . . the Church . . . condemns works-salvation, or Pelagianism, so I don't see this as a contradiction to our theology at all. Grace IS amazing! There is also such a thing as initial justification in Catholicism. There is a beginning-point in the salvation process (baptism). We can receive further grace through the sacraments, but there is an initial time, at which regeneration occurs. And it is all by grace in our theology."<br /><br />Voris made a bunch of hay about the word "wretch" and I noted that St. Paul described himself: "Wretched man that I am!" (Rom 7:24). I stated:<br /><br />"Also in Revelation 3:16b-17, Jesus describes the Laodiceans: who were "lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot" (3:16a) -- a prototype of a certain sort of unregenerate sinner -- as follows:<br />'. . . I will spew you out of my mouth. [17] For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are WRETCHED, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.' " <br /><br />So where's the beef? I don't see anti-Catholicism in "Amazing Grace." I see "Grace alone" that saved a "wretch" like former slave trader John Newton (the writer), and indeed all of us who have no hope of being saved without grace.<br /><br />Sure, he was a Calvinist, yet I see nothing here that is incompatible with catholic theology at all, since we teach salvation by grace of wretches just as much as any Protestant does.<br /><br />The point might hold if there was distinctive Calvinist theology in the song that differed from us, such as, e.g., predestination to hell or perseverance of the saints.<br /><br />Dalton stated in the combox of my paper: "Dave, Catholic songs for a Mass should reflect the theology of the Catholoc faith. No Protestant song or hymn can do that." <br /><br />But this is untrue. I just sowed how "Amazing Grace" is perfectly compatible with Catholic theology. <br /><br />My point stands: truth is truth: whatever the source. Not every song can be (obviously) an exhaustive catalogue of theology. This is a ludicrous requirement. Many solid Catholic songs, like, e/g/, "Silent Night" have relatively little theology in them. But "Amazing Grace" teaches grace alone, over against works salvation: a thing we completely agree with, and indeed a very important thing (see St. Augustine's long debate with the Pelagians). So why we should either not sing it, or deem it somehow "anti-Catholic" on its face, is an utter mystery to me.<br /><br />It's only, well, pharisaical legalism that would take such a silly, tunnel vision view.<br /><br />Dalton said on my thread, after naming things the song didn't include: "What is mentioned here is the 'born again' experiance so beloved by evangelical Protestants."<br /><br />Of course that isn't exclusive to Protestants, either. I guess he has never read Augustine's "Confessions." Thomas a Kempis stresses personal relationship with Christ. So does the sacrament of confirmation, which is a re-affirmation of adult commitment to Christ, and a filling of the Holy Spirit. None of that is unCatholic at all, let alone anti-Catholic. Granted, the entire theological interpretation differs, but not the aspect of giving one's life totally to Christ as a disciple. <br /><br />My friend Paul Hoffer wrote:<br /><br />"I own a number of Catholic hymnals, one or two that go back to the 1860's, and Catholics even then had no problem singing something written by Bach or Handel or Haydn, so why should we?"Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-2640810221902188132012-05-12T14:58:34.428-04:002012-05-12T14:58:34.428-04:00And, by the criteria of St. Pius X, yes, Masses co...And, by the criteria of St. Pius X, yes, Masses composed by Mozart, Bach, etc. would be forbidden, not because of their personal lives or that they were Protestants, but because of the suppression of the voice by the music and the long musical interludes:<br /><br /><i>20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.</i> Tra le Sollecitudini<br /><br />This would prohibit the performance of Mozart Masses, which require a whole orchestra.<br /><br /><i>16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.<br /><br />17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces</i> ibid.<br /><br />This would also prohibit a Mozart Mass because (at least judging from the few I attended when in Austria) they have very long musical interludes.<br /><br />I am not trying to engage in an argument, but I think there is a little bit more to this than you are saying.<br /><br />Here is an interesting one:<br /><br /><i>19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.</i><br /><br />I know you weren't saying anything about drums/cymbals or anything like that, but notice it includes the piano among forbidden instruments, and this is now common.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55961719741061307392012-05-12T14:50:25.430-04:002012-05-12T14:50:25.430-04:00I did find an interesting statement from De Music...I did find an interesting statement from <i> De Music Sacra et Sacra Liturgia</i> from 1958, which says on the subject of hymns:<br /><br /><br />52. If hymns are to attain their purpose, their texts "must conform to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, plainly stating, and explaining it."<br /><br />Though Protestant hymns are not mentioned here, one wonders how a Protestant hymn can conform to the doctrine of the Catholic Faith by "plainly stating' and "explaining it." Amazing Grace might not openly contradict Catholicism (depending on how it is interpreted), but does it "plainly state" and "explain" the Faith?<br /><br />Pius XII in <i>Musica Sacrae</i>, 1955, also stated:<br /><br />"63. If hymns of this sort are to bring spiritual fruit and advantage to the Christian people, they must be in full conformity with the doctrine of the Catholic faith. They must also express and explain that doctrine accurately."<br /><br />Again, Protestant hymns are not forbidden, but is transplanting Protestant music - even hymns written by Luther - into the Liturgy really in keeping with the mind of the Church?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47084837499124719932012-05-12T13:42:00.307-04:002012-05-12T13:42:00.307-04:00Well, I am not suggesting these songs are "fo...Well, I am not suggesting these songs are "forbidden," only that they do not have the same meaning in a Catholic context as they do in their original context, just like Gregorian chant doesn't mean as much to a Buddhist as it would to a Catholic, although a Buddhist might still appreciate it and even find some beauty in it.<br /><br />Also, the issue was never here the moral life of the composers, so I'm not sure what Beethoven being a fornicator has to do with anything. The original issue was that religious customs from one tradition did not have the same meaning when brought to another.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19878095580236191702012-05-12T11:36:55.539-04:002012-05-12T11:36:55.539-04:00I see that Dalton is again obsessed with my work, ...I see that Dalton is again obsessed with my work, having blasted me for the same thing on another page recently. For those who actually care about reading arguments that are being pilloried, here is the link that he deliberately refused to provide:<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/11/is-amazing-grace-anti-catholic-hymn.html<br /><br />The flaws in this general line of argument are clear: all truth is truth, no matter where it is found. This was the principle that St. Paul exercised on mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17), where he commended pagans for their religiosity, and cited two pagan poets / philosophers in his discourse.<br /><br />Jesus commended the Roman centurion for his faith, etc. St. Thomas Aquinas uses these arguments. Paul says in Romans 2 that those who have never heard the gospel will be judged by what they know.<br /><br />By this goofy, illogical reasoning, only music by perfectly saintly Catholic composers would be permitted. No Beethoven (lapsed Catholic and fornicator), or Schubert [we play his music at our Latin Masses]: he died of syphilis, thus was likely a fornicator, being single, or Bach (egads! He's Lutheran!), or Mozart (no saint, either).<br /><br />Many wonderful Christmas carols written by Protestants would be excluded. It's an utterly ridiculous view of art and music, related to Catholic services.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-70950953234736509342012-05-08T02:39:19.581-04:002012-05-08T02:39:19.581-04:00So... centuries upon centuries of Catholic music i...So... centuries upon centuries of Catholic music is "poorer" until we realized in the modern times that we can adopt hymns from sects who interject their heresy implicitly or explicitly in them. <br />Oh those poor Popes, saints and Doctors for the past several hundred years were just swimming in their stupidity until the great modern times when the enlightened minds of the recent churchmen in all their suprdogma personas allowed us to become richer. I morn the foolishness of past before the great modern era and all its ambiguous ecumenism..Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-81905160829493746542012-05-07T10:00:29.200-04:002012-05-07T10:00:29.200-04:00Some months ago, Michael Voris caused Mark Shea an...Some months ago, Michael Voris caused Mark Shea and Dave Armstrong to have mega-hissyfits because he said Amazing Grace didn't belong in the Catholic Mass. Voris basically made the same point that you have made in this post, that AG made sense in in it's own Protestant background, but it's doctrinal content make it incompatable in a Catholic Mass. Shea and Armstrong went ballistic over Voris's simple observation. I made a comment on Armstrong's site that we Catholics have nearly 2000 years of music to pick and choose from, so why do we even need to borrow AG from the Prots? Armstrong called me a Pharisee, and a lawyer, who's name escapes me for the moment, said our store of music would be so much poorer without AG and other Protestant hymns and songs. Huh?!Steve "scotju" Daltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17864544146213840928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-30367123879086975512012-05-07T06:36:51.096-04:002012-05-07T06:36:51.096-04:00I, for one, one like to know how even in my countr...I, for one, one like to know how even in my country many people assume the orans position during the Our Father at Mass. It baffles me, as this is a traditionally Roman Catholic country.Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.com