tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post1227000651005721234..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Buffalo Dance in Santa FeBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-26573612463686573542010-12-13T20:37:59.798-05:002010-12-13T20:37:59.798-05:00Lee wrote:
“Dance was an integral part of the Tem...Lee wrote:<br /><br />“Dance was an integral part of the Temple liturgy - remember David dancing before the ark? “<br /><br />No one danced when Christ died on the cross except his enemies. The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ brought to the present.Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-88698301768394550592010-12-07T22:37:23.098-05:002010-12-07T22:37:23.098-05:00Lee-
The problem is not dance per se. The problem...Lee-<br /><br />The problem is not dance per se. The problem is<br /><br />1) Is this ritual appropriate for the Catholic liturgy?<br /><br />2) Even if they claim to be worshiping the Great Spirit, is this Great Spirit identifiable by the Indians (not the missionaries) with the Holy Trinity? Are they adoring Jesus Christ? If no, then they have no business doing it.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-56310946910536765482010-12-07T21:51:23.635-05:002010-12-07T21:51:23.635-05:00I do not know Indian culture well enough to pronou...I do not know Indian culture well enough to pronounce on the state of their beliefs. The Indians I saw in Santa Fe were Catholic and said that their dance was to honor the Great Spirit, whom the missionaries recognized as God. <br /><br />My guess is that an inchoate monotheism of many natural religions, in which God is distant and the gods are concerned with everyday affairs, is influenced by Christianity even among the tribes which remain pagan.<br /><br />I spoke to several Hopis about the kachinas – they claimed they didn’t adore the kachinas – that would be absurd, They adored the Creator, and asked the kachinas to bring them the Creator’s blessings.<br /><br />One assumes that monotheism would be even clearer among Indians who have been Catholic for centuries.<br /><br />Dance was an integral part of the Temple liturgy - remember David dancing before the ark?<br /><br />In the West the dance has been largely eroticized and is unsuitable for the liturgy, but many non-Western peoples pray with their bodies as well as their voices.<br /><br />The liturgical dance of American peoples will be prominent this week in the celebrations of Nuestra Señora de Guadaloupe – are they dishonoring her by their solemn dances?Lee Podleshttp://podles.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-13408581091706742822010-12-06T03:54:15.576-05:002010-12-06T03:54:15.576-05:00I would like to rather tolerate another faith rath...I would like to rather tolerate another faith rather than "love" it. Loving something that yields no salvation and is contrary to the teachings of the Church makes no sense.<br /><br /><br /><br />I would also argue that some things in the Mass were developed because of the Mass itself; chant and the use of a liturgical language are a few things I would name. Therefore anything that would undermine, replace, or be declared just as good over what has been legitimately developed should be opposed.<br /><br />The dance has, as described above, first an ambiguous meaning.<br /><br />“To the Great Spirit” is ambiguous.<br /><br />Second is the fact that in its Pueblo context it is against the Catholic religion.<br /><br />Here is where the great ecumenical/inter-religious ambiguous dialogue and practices begin.<br /><br />It's as if specific details, definition of terms, and explicitness is thrown out the window in order to incorporate everyone. “The great spirit” can mean anything to anyone. To faithful Pueblos it is pagan, to Catholic converts from Pueblo Indianism it could mean God Himself. Who knows? <br /><br />As the blog post here states “If they were giving true worship, however, it seems those in attendance required a good deal more explanation.” And this is exactly the point of modern Church relations with other regions. It seeks to keep things as vague and non-confrontational as possible in order to win “converts” and to “get along.” As long as we can do enough mental gymnastics we can explain why dozens upon dozens of pagan rituals can be incorporated into the Mass (or I guess afterward in the Church building).<br /><br /><br />Next would be my concern over the dance itself. If hypothetically the dance where explicitly explained as being a thanksgiving to the Triune God Himself we would still have the problem of the Pueblo Indians doing the exact same dance and music in an entirely different context. It would at least fall under some category of being harmful because of the confusion it may produce.<br /><br />Further still, liturgies of a certain rite should not be laden with a severity of customs and options. Minor differences in customs and options are okay (like when the bell(s) are rung). But to incorporate every kind of non-Catholic ritual into the Mass would be liturgical chaos. It would further fuel abuse and generate the appearance that the Mass is more for your entertainment and “good feelings.”<br /><br />Finally here is where I draw a blank. I cannot think of anything in the Mass that EXACTLY mimics a thanksgiving prayer or song to a pagan one. <br /><br />Also I believe that pagans in Europe had their own song and dance to their gods and obviously they were not incorporated in the local liturgies at least with any kind of staying power – centuries of liturgical development should demonstrate that not ALL customs and ritual should be incorporated given the context of what the Mass is and in this case I would say it is a bad thing given what I said above.Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19482613368820662362010-12-05T11:40:39.128-05:002010-12-05T11:40:39.128-05:00fascinating, enjoyed this what you say is traditio...fascinating, enjoyed this what you say is traditional catholic is traditional European of various ethnicitys which have become Catholic over centuries.Did not Saint Gregory the Great say to use local traditions and make them Christian? The Church should carry on doing that with all traditions,all true worship no matter what name we call Him goes to God and by our Love and respect to all faiths will we show the way of ChristAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com