tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post2873720160158375235..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: The Heresies of BalthasarBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-5096592489982220892014-05-23T17:32:07.681-04:002014-05-23T17:32:07.681-04:00Except for the citation of Psalm 22 we already dis...Except for the citation of Psalm 22 we already discussed, what possible citation are you referring to where Jesus says God "deserted" Him?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-1807938053632898072014-05-22T17:35:52.594-04:002014-05-22T17:35:52.594-04:00You are forgetting that the textual materials has ...You are forgetting that the textual materials has Jesus actually testifying to the fact that God deserted him. It is not me that says it, it is Christ that says it.William Meeganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06866916885918941814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-89481717606985894242014-05-21T12:06:31.675-04:002014-05-21T12:06:31.675-04:00Uh..except God did not desert Christ. Christ was q...Uh..except God did not desert Christ. Christ was quoting Psalm 22 to demonstrate its prophetic fulfillment.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-37842886910298705042014-05-21T11:55:08.577-04:002014-05-21T11:55:08.577-04:00There is an old American Indian saying that fits y...There is an old American Indian saying that fits your personae quite aptly: "You are as far from yourself as a sow is from the moon".<br /><br />It is obvious that you worship the teachings of theologians over the source material of New Testament. How can any theologian have a greater authority than the sacred scriptures???...<br /><br />Few people attempt to answer the question, why did God abandon Christ on the Cross???... Even Jesus cries from the cross, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?" One does not have to be a theologian to understand why God abandoned Christ on the cross; however, a Catholic has to be at least a mystic to answer that question: i.e. a personal friend of God. Ask yourself this question in relationship to this problem, 'if Christ is one of the three persons of the Trinity and therefore is God, how can God abandon God???...'<br /><br />The answer to this question is right there in the New Testament. It may not be in sequential order in the way modernity writes out a narrative but none the less the answer is there and in sequential order.<br /><br />Jesus after being Baptized went off and was tempted by the devil (crucial to the answer) and then choose twelve disciples: why only twelve disciples???... Twelve happens to be a number of mathematical perfection in relationship to the creation process. In choosing twelve Christ was teaching humanity how to arrange life on an individual level. Twelve happens to the closing of the Mystic Circle: in every sense it is life in the Garden of Eden, lived here on Earth here and now not in some distant past. Since Jesus stopped at twelve he had achieved his goal. Remember at the Baptism of Christ God declared that Jesus was his beloved son? Here it can be seen that the Trinity is in unity.<br /><br />Fast forward to the last supper when the Mystic Circle of twelve was broken. Judas Iscariot was tempted by Satan and, for all intent and purpose, the mystic circle was broken right then and there. Once the circle was broken God fled from Christ. Saint John tells us in God there is no darkness. Christ's scream from the cross does not tell us when God deserted him. In recent times we see movies where a circle is drawn and those inside are protected; however, if there is so much as one part of the circle that is not closed all evil rushes in: this is the same idea here in the New Testament and undoubtedly the source material for such skits in literature an movies in modern times.<br /><br />Fast forward to Pentecost Sunday when Mathias was chosen to take Judas' place amongst the twelve. The moment that Mathias was elected the Holy Spirit (an aspect of the Trinity) descended upon the twelve: meaning that the Mystic Circle was once again closed.<br /><br />That should answer your question as to why God deserted Christ.William Meeganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06866916885918941814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74743831469713393892012-04-11T22:47:05.651-04:002012-04-11T22:47:05.651-04:00Anthony,
Okay, here you go:
http://unamsanctamca...Anthony,<br /><br />Okay, here you go:<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2012/04/balthasar-christ-and-beatific-vision.html<br /><br />There are plenty of troubling quotes from Balthasar in this one. I know that some, including our current pope, defend this man's theology, but even if I grant that he may not be in outright heresy, he is definitely at odds with Pius XII and Aquinas on the question of the Beatific Vision.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52500201081224005742012-04-11T10:13:49.099-04:002012-04-11T10:13:49.099-04:00Keep an eye out for my next post in which Balthasa...Keep an eye out for my next post in which Balthasar denies that Christ has the beatific vision. Doesn't it also trouble you that he says the Incarnation is 'suspended'?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-79848434136620470012012-04-11T00:19:19.903-04:002012-04-11T00:19:19.903-04:00"Well, I would just disagree about the privat..."Well, I would just disagree about the privation theory. I think it is sufficient."<br /><br /><br />It's true that sin is characterized by privation of grace and the good,<br />but sin itself is an act of will.<br /><br /><br />"I mean that sin has no objective existence outside of a sinner who actually commits them. Sin is an action done contrary to the divine law, and as such, requires an agent to commit it. I do not believe you can abstract an act from the one who commits it."<br /><br /><br />"Abstract" isn't really the right word. Sin is relational. It is an offense against God. Although it clings to the person who sinned,it is still a stain that can be removed by God,and it also is an <br />offensive thing in itself to God and he hates it in itself,apart from the person.<br /><br />I would be interested in seeing the quotes from Balthasar which you think are heretical. He was the contemporary theologian whose thinking the Pope Benedict most liked. They were friends and the pope never criticized his theology in print. They co-authored a book called Mary,The Church at the Source.Anthony Puccettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-15995922172865468032012-04-06T19:22:17.870-04:002012-04-06T19:22:17.870-04:00Anthony,
That is because the article didn't d...Anthony,<br /><br />That is because the article didn't deal with all that stuff specifically, but just the aspect of Balthasar's understanding of sin. I will be doing more on Balthasar soon, with plenty of quotes to satisfy you.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8734078095942597612012-04-02T09:03:32.997-04:002012-04-02T09:03:32.997-04:00Well, I would just disagree about the privation th...Well, I would just disagree about the privation theory. I think it is sufficient.<br /><br />I mean that sin has no objective existence outside of a sinner who actually commits them. Sin is an action done contrary to the divine law, and as such, requires an agent to commit it. I do not believe you can abstract an act from the one who commits it. <br /><br />It is not wrong to use language about Christ bearing the sins of the world, but I do not think it is in the way Balthasar suggests. Many of the medieval commentators, and other Catholic commentators, see Christ "bearing the sins of the world" as meaning that Christ, in His passion, became of victim of the sins of men, not he literally "became sin", as Balthasar asserts, and was "crushed" by the Father.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-12522470441968066272012-04-01T23:42:54.007-04:002012-04-01T23:42:54.007-04:00Bonifiace,
You did not include quotes from Baltha...Bonifiace,<br /><br />You did not include quotes from Balthasar in your article where he says those things.Anthony Puccettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-7548143487501904932012-04-01T23:38:49.513-04:002012-04-01T23:38:49.513-04:00"Most readers of this blog are familiar enoug..."Most readers of this blog are familiar enough with the traditional doctrine of sin as a privation that I don't think I need to cite any more sources to establish it. This is an important point, however, because Balthasar will go on to misinterpret the traditional approach taken by St. Augustine and St. Thomas to mean that sin is "nothing." He will state that the idea of sin as a privation does not adequately grasp the reality of sin's horror."<br /><br />It is true that the idea of sin as a privation does not adequately grasp the reality of sin's horror. Think of murder and rape and cruelty. To say merely that those actions fall short of the good is absurdly inadequate. The most important traditional understanding of sin is that it is an offense against God. Balthasar was wrong,<br />however,to misconstrue the privation idea as meaning that sin is nothing. <br /><br />"It stands to reason that, since a privation does not have ontological existence, it cannot be objectively separated from the subject in which that privation is found."<br /><br />Sin does have an ontological reality,because it is an act of will.<br /><br />""It is possible to distinguish between the sin and the sinner...Because of the energy that man has invested in it, sin is a reality, it is not 'nothing.'" (Theo-Drama, vol. V, pp. 266, 314).<br /><br />Because sin has this ontological reality, it can be abstracted from the sinner and, consequently, removed to another locus. Here Balthasar's theology of sin crosses into his soteriology. Because sin is a reality that can be separated from the sinner, it is possible to "load" it on to Christ, who literally assumes the sins of every person in His death, but especially in His Descent:<br /><br />"[Sin] has been isolated from the sinner...separated from the sinner by the work of the Cross" (ibid., 285, 314)."<br /><br />It is true that sins are separable from persons and that they are loaded upon Christ. They are separable because they are not intrinsic to our personhood,but are stains upon our nature,will and conscience. We say in the liturgy,<br />"Lamb of God,who takes away the sins of the world",which means he separates our sins from us. 1 Peter 2:24 says that Christ bore our sins in his body on the tree. And it is a Church doctrine that Christ suffered and continues to suffer for our sins. So why would you disagree that our sins are loaded upon Christ?Anthony Puccettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-30788391009483662772012-04-01T21:59:02.360-04:002012-04-01T21:59:02.360-04:00The idea that Christ was abandoned by the Father i...<i>The idea that Christ was abandoned by the Father is not Balthasar's invention and it is not heretical,if it only means that Christ was not given consolation by the Father.</i><br /><br />Yes, but that is not what Balthasar means by it. What he means is that<br /><br />(a) the Father is actually angry with Jesus - He punishes Jesus as if Jesus Himself had committed the sins He is being punished for.<br /><br />(b) Jesus is deprived of the Beatific Vision of God (which Balthasar actually denies Jesus really has anyway).<br /><br />(c) Jesus Himself actually believes that He is abandoned by God in an absolute sense - in other words, Jesus believers error.<br /><br />(d) God the Father, on Holy Saturday, turns away from Jesus in such a definitive way that the very fabric of the Trinity is stretched and the Incarnation is "suspended."<br /><br />Balthasar is talking about much more than lack of consolation, which we all agree upon (although Jesus still had the Beatific Vision at the time of the Crucifixion).Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-79607150881288752502012-04-01T21:53:02.359-04:002012-04-01T21:53:02.359-04:00The idea that Christ was abandoned by the Father i...The idea that Christ was abandoned by the Father is not Balthasar's invention and it is not heretical,<br />if it only means that Christ was not given consolation by the Father.<br /><br />Saint Liguori says this in his book Reflections and Affections on the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ:<br /><br />"Jesus, seeing that he found no one to console him upon this earth, raised his eyes and his Heart to his Father, craving relief from him. But the Eternal Father, beholding the Son clad in the garment of a sinner, replied, No, my Son, I cannot give Thee consolation, now that Thou art making satisfaction to my justice for all the sins of men; it is fitting that I too should abandon Thee to Thy pains, and let Thee die without solace. And then it was that our Saviour, crying out with aloud voice, said, My God, my God, and why hast Thou too abandoned Me? Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? In his explanation of this passage, the Blessed Denis, the Carthusian, says that Jesus uttered these words with a loud cry, to make all men understand the greatness of the pain and sorrow in which he died. And it was the will of the loving Redeemer, adds St. Cyprian, to die bereft of every consolation, to give proof to us of his love, and to draw to himself all our love: "He was left in dereliction, that he might show forth his love towards us, and might attract our love towards himself."<br /><br />The idea that Christ suffered the pains of hell on Holy Saturday is not justifiable by either scripture or theological tradition.Anthony Puccettinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-36668968489754419222012-03-03T14:32:50.809-05:002012-03-03T14:32:50.809-05:00The very fact their reference point was never Papa...<i>The very fact their reference point was never Papal Encyclicals or Council Decrees is proof they were up to no good. </i><br /><br />Indeed.<br />They drool over novelty and the chance to become famous. I have seen this first hand. They make up crap and try to weave it together with sophisticated wording all to puff up their pride in hopes that they will become recognized as a “leading scholar” among other like-mined neo-Modernists in academia. This is why they either do not use traditional sources or employ the resourcement technique to try and hold their house up that is built on sand.Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998296715568420559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-10337801020114534882012-02-24T12:02:04.741-05:002012-02-24T12:02:04.741-05:00...and so much for the Civilta Cattolica series on......and so much for the Civilta Cattolica series on The Jewish Question :)Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-38648456321616131782012-02-22T17:10:56.317-05:002012-02-22T17:10:56.317-05:00The "pious fantasies" comment is shockin...The "pious fantasies" comment is shocking but once again remember the historical context. I became a Catholic in 1983 and I remember the confusion and the skepticism of that period all too well. The revision of the liturgical calendar had left millions of Catholics with the distinct impression that the church itself now believed many of its own traditions (remember St. Christopher?) to be no more than "pious fantasies." The simple fact that Catholics had believed something for centuries (limbo?) no longer seemed like a sufficient argument for believing it now. I remember being taught in RCIA about the distinction between tradition and Tradition. And 98 percent of what Catholics had ever believed was dismissed as tradition (small t). I am glad that Balthasar is falling out of favor. But given the extraordinary confusion of the post-conciliar period, I understand why well intentioned conservative Catholics turned to him for refuge. He was one of the few post-conciliar theologians who had least "sounded" Catholic.Tawserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823690750419031274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76539584632691491342012-02-22T14:34:04.236-05:002012-02-22T14:34:04.236-05:00One can be genuine but still in blatant opposition...One can be genuine but still in blatant opposition to Tradition. I don't think the "compared to others he was orthodox" argument is safe, for Catholicism is sufficiently robust and systematic that it's very hard to botch it. Either you have it all right or you have it all wrong. <br /><br />In the case of liberal/heretical "scholarship," they truly do know better. Basic Christology, basic Soterilogy, basic Ecclesilogy are all pretty easy to learn, and yet these "teachers" sought to undermine them at every turn. <br /><br />The very fact their reference point was never Papal Encyclicals or Council Decrees is proof they were up to no good. All you are left with is inventing your own theology, a la Protestantism.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-11996351574658488762012-02-22T14:09:49.837-05:002012-02-22T14:09:49.837-05:00Tawser-
You are partially right in comparing him ...Tawser-<br /><br />You are partially right in comparing him to the others, but he plainly knew he was contradicting tradition. If you read his comments, especially on the Descent, he calls the traditional doctrines "pious fantasies" and is very clear that he understands that much of what he proposes is novel.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-23883806713104954092012-02-22T11:40:55.165-05:002012-02-22T11:40:55.165-05:00You have to remember how bad the situation in the ...You have to remember how bad the situation in the church was during the period when Balthasar was most popular. Compared to most of the other major theological figures of the day--Rahner, Kung, Schillibeck (sp?) et all, he WAS orthodox. I think it is true to say that he was at least orthodox in intent. He seriously believed that what he taught did not contradict the tradition. He was deluded and mistaken but at least he was not malicious. And in the climate of the 1980s, that was as close to actual orthodoxy as most theologians got. Just thinking about that period makes me break out in a cold sweat.Tawserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823690750419031274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4096909517169206452012-02-20T16:28:38.068-05:002012-02-20T16:28:38.068-05:00Dear Ishmael.
What to me that is nettlesome is th...Dear Ishmael.<br /><br />What to me that is nettlesome is that The Catholic Church, via its then official media organ, warned the world that were the world to continue to let The Jews run roughshod over them then The Jews would reap the very whirlwind you cite as the bitter taste of 1939 that you experience in your mouth.<br /><br />That is, The Catholic Church warned the world, and The Jews, that there would be hell to pay for what the Jews were doing to Christendom roughly one-half century prior to Hitler<br /><br />However, so few know the truth about that waning that the vast majority of the members of The New Israel continue to identify the WW2 years as the definitive event of history against which all other crimes and offenses are to be measured against or compared with.<br /><br />And, of course, the reason so few Catholics know about the facts is that The Jews control the media and education and Holy Mother Church seeks to sue for peace with the ADL and B'nai Brith etc etc<br /><br />That is, what has come to be known as the holocaust has supplanted the Crucifixion of Christ as the turing point of history and in what are now formerly Catholic Countries in Europe, one can be sent to jail for not publicly confessing the truth of the holocaust while an entire country in the M.E. is comprised of those who are Messiah-Deniers and not a word in protest against that reality is to be heard from those who pitch their tents of Faith in New Israel.<br /><br />In my small corner of the world it is MUCH worse to be a Messiah-Denier than it is to be a holocaust -denier.<br /><br />Here is the link to the C.C. series on The Jews.<br /><br />http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jq1.htmMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76859487529519287812012-02-20T15:11:08.716-05:002012-02-20T15:11:08.716-05:00It is important to recall also that, although we m...It is important to recall also that, although we may have people who oppose the Church, I always remember that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8508292307046396432012-02-20T14:49:46.327-05:002012-02-20T14:49:46.327-05:00I reacted to your use of "The Jew," not ...I reacted to your use of "The Jew," not "the Jews" (or even "The Jews"). There's a lot of difference in those formulations. The latter refers to a people (that doesn't accept Christ and is our enemy, if want to use that language) and the former implies, as I wrote, "some mass-body of shared-consciousness" about which I said "that language use like "The Jew" does leave a poor taste of that bitter year 1939 in ones mouth." I already wrote in my past post everything you did (only shorter) to avoid having to go through this.<br /><br />We're not enemies here.<br /><br />/ Call Me Ishmael / CMICall Me Ishmaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-35942942126636343832012-02-20T14:23:45.830-05:002012-02-20T14:23:45.830-05:00No worries, Spartacus. Yes, Judaism, as it exists ...No worries, Spartacus. Yes, Judaism, as it exists since the coming of Christ, represents only a rejection of God's plan. It is when people start talking about Jewish conspiracies and Holocaust denial that I get uncomfortable.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-31820642090366426092012-02-20T12:11:56.654-05:002012-02-20T12:11:56.654-05:00Dear Ishmael 1 Thess 2: 14,15 For you, brethre...Dear Ishmael 1 Thess 2: 14,15 <b> For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men;</b><br /><br />A Jew is one who rejects Jesus whereas a semite is no longer considered a Jew by the Jews in Israel (law of return) if he converts to Catholicism.<br /><br />That is to say that to be a Jew is not considered a matter of race, it is a condition vis a vis whether or not he accepts Jesus as The Messiah.<br /><br />Now, if you think the New Testament is antisemitic, rather than anti-Jew, do not ever read what St. John Chrysostom had to day about them and their Synagogues.<br /><br />Oh, BTW, if you were to take a look at the Chair of Peter in The Basilica of Saint Peter's in Rome, you could see a statue of St John Chrysostom on the right (as you look at it) and he is a Doctor of the Church.<br /><br />As to your reference to Jews and WW2, I wonder if you realise the extent to which that reveals the success of zionist propaganda in what was formerly known as Christendom as what happened to Jews in WW2 has supplanted Deicide as the worst crime of all time.<br /><br />It only a short period of time, we have gone from The Jews killed Christ to The Jews are helpless victims of hatred which is directly tied to Catholic Doctrine.<br /><br /><br />And now, I apologise to Boniface for causing this thread to drift off topic. I will ceaseMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-66177726827577531032012-02-20T11:52:39.615-05:002012-02-20T11:52:39.615-05:00Boniface. I support your actions for antisemitism ...Boniface. I support your actions for antisemitism is a sin but to be anti-Jew is quite rational and traditional.<br /><br />Well, it used to be until The advent of the New Theology and V2; now, we have Popes visiting Synagogues and not preaching Christ and Conversion and we have Our Holy Father writing his series of books and stating that We Catholics no longer have to concern ourselves about conversion of the Jews etc etc.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.com