tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post3047448066108183916..comments2024-03-18T15:16:08.163-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: The tired old "fruits" argumentBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-2303592360714802492015-12-29T01:25:39.888-05:002015-12-29T01:25:39.888-05:00It's a great blog, well appreciated in Croatia...It's a great blog, well appreciated in Croatia among those who love tradition.<br />God bless you.spacirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-11163239221143636432015-12-14T15:05:07.387-05:002015-12-14T15:05:07.387-05:00You are bearing false witness again. The bishop...You are bearing false witness again. The bishop's conference did not take a neutral position. And please stop projecting false implications. Non constat means no, not maybe. Not only did the Bishop of Medjugorge state "non constat de supernaturalitate," but he further stated "constat de non supernaturalitate" which means "the event is confirmed to be of non-supernatural origin."<br /><br />What you trivialize as the "personal opinion" of both local ordinaries for your propagandistic purposes is authoritative, and no authority was ever removed from the bishops and the authority of their judgment because of the use of the word “opinion.” The use of that word does not mean it is arbitrary or capricious. Got it?<br /><br />It is only the disgracefulness of Medjugorje idolators that the bishops themselves were forced to request the additional authority of Rome to counteract the madness.<br />Venerationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12014260832773148510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74435250395751037172015-12-14T14:53:06.968-05:002015-12-14T14:53:06.968-05:00You are bearing false witness again. The bishop...You are bearing false witness again. The bishop's conference did not take a neutral position. And please stop projecting false implications. Non constat means no, not maybe. Not only did the Bishop of Medjugorge state "non constat de supernaturalitate," but he further stated "constat de non supernaturalitate" which means "the event is confirmed to be of non-supernatural origin."<br /><br />What you trivialize as the "personal opinion" of both local ordinaries for your propagandistic purposes is authoratative, and no authority was ever removed from the bishops and the authority of their judgment.<br /><br />It is only the disgracefulness of Medjugorje idolators that the bishops themselves were forced to request the additional authority of Rome to counteract the madness. <br /><br /> <br /><br />Venerationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12014260832773148510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-68813171250969261252015-12-01T17:27:39.096-05:002015-12-01T17:27:39.096-05:00Maybe he didnt use the words "private opinion...Maybe he didnt use the words "private opinion " but He did use the words "personal opinion"<br /><br />Card. Bertone : <br />"What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of Famille Chretienne, declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate, but likewise, constat de non supernaturalitate of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion"<br /><br />source : http://www.medjugorje-apologia.com/position_of_the_church.html ( under piont 2.)<br /><br />So , the "contat the non " of the bishop ( that it is certain that nothing supernatural occurred ) is deemed as not a authoritative declaration . And the "non constat " ( it can not be established if it is supernatural or not ) is confirmed . Which was the declaration of the bishops conference .<br /><br />Now the CDF will come with a new declaration on Medjugorje , we will have to wait and see if they confirm the declaration of the bishops conference or that they will say something else.<br /><br /><br /><br />Mathehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06740443519997860439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-49698752268357298312015-12-01T15:04:03.612-05:002015-12-01T15:04:03.612-05:00Wrong, Bertone did not say "private" opi...Wrong, Bertone did not say "private" opinion. He did not use the word private and did not trivialize the authoritative nature of the local bishop's judgments. Venerationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12014260832773148510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-7004632636649972922015-11-29T10:54:58.425-05:002015-11-29T10:54:58.425-05:00As far as I can see it , the vatican has taken the...As far as I can see it , the vatican has taken the authority to judge over the apparition out of the hands of the local bishop.<br />The local B. did say that the apparitions where totally false .<br />But the bishops conference of - former - Yougoslavia only came to the conclusion that the supernatural character could not be established .which is a neutral position between condemnation and approval.<br />Then the vatican decided to investigate it themselves . I guess they will say the same as the bishop conference ; that it can not be established that is supernatural .<br />They could, ofcouse, also come to the conclusion that it is false.<br /><br />Having said this , I as faithfull catholic I find it extremely hard to have any confidence in what most bishops say or even teach.<br />As I see it a large part of the bishops are very liberal or even heretical.<br />At best they are faithful but silent .They do not defend church teaching in public.<br /><br />In the Netherlands only ± 5% of the registered Catholics go to mass every Sunday .<br />Only a 8 % of that group believe in the moral teachings of the church...<br /><br />Whether Medjugorje is false or genuine , only the intercession of our Lady , holy Mary , can save the church and the world.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Mathehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06740443519997860439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-34786781475141272982015-11-29T07:46:24.976-05:002015-11-29T07:46:24.976-05:00Mathe,
Of course. But per The Church's discip...Mathe,<br /><br />Of course. But per The Church's discipline, the local bishops decision is authoritative. If the local bishop condemns the apparition and forbids it from being promulgated, the faithful are bound to obey his decision. He has jurisdiction. Those faithful who continue to promote an apparition when the bishop has condemned it are being disobedient. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-18309632077038494912015-11-29T00:35:43.911-05:002015-11-29T00:35:43.911-05:00his "condemnation is not valid because the va...his "condemnation is not valid because the vatican has taken the matter out of his hands.<br />Cardinal Bertone has said - you can find this on internet - that it ( the condemnation ) must be consideed a private opinion of the bishop .Mathehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06740443519997860439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-42990100641147134802015-11-28T14:03:19.662-05:002015-11-28T14:03:19.662-05:00The bishop hasn't only just "not approved...The bishop hasn't only just "not approved" Medjugorje, he has actually condemned it. Two bishops of the diocese have. Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-87777180448336359002015-11-28T13:09:25.932-05:002015-11-28T13:09:25.932-05:00When you talk of apparitions of amsterdam the lady...When you talk of apparitions of amsterdam the lady of all nation, after they attacked this apparition the blessed mother again reached out with the same image to akita! Akita Is approved! But when u look or dig deeper who our lady of akita is you will see she is the lady of all nation.. The wooden statue which was curved by a lady who wanted to show gratitude after being healed by our lady of all nation started weeping blood and tears... <br />The Bishop of amsterdam approved our lady of all nation . ...but the bishop of medjugorje hasn't yet approved the apparition of medjugorje. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14224512446193910921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-13346015419677093512015-06-09T09:28:18.273-04:002015-06-09T09:28:18.273-04:00Veneration,
While some of your points are well ta...Veneration,<br /><br />While some of your points are well taken, I believe Amsterdam is correct. The Magisterium says that the final call for any apparition - either to approve or condemn - is with the local ordinary. An apparition is approved if it is approved by the bishop, condemned if the bishop condemns it.<br /><br />Sometimes the universal church steps in - such as with Fatima and Lourdes and Guadalupe - and assigns a Feast Day associated with the apparition, which is the highest form of approbation, but that itself does not constitute its approval.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-44196082689501686152015-06-09T07:26:37.050-04:002015-06-09T07:26:37.050-04:00To make an assumption and repeat it as fact is as ...To make an assumption and repeat it as fact is as much a violation of the Eighth Commandment as gossip about our neighbor. You don't know why Cardinal Burke underwent a change of assignment. <br />Secondly, bishops do not have the authority to "approve" an apparition. They only have the authority to condemn a false apparition, as has been done repeatedly at Medjugorje. <br />Third. Your projection of evil as explainable only through a specific act of Satan is wrong. The willful evil and hypocricy of the "seers" is enough to explain promoting the rosary while also promoting stupid and heretical words and actions to their "vision."Venerationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12014260832773148510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-464205798727988412015-06-08T17:31:05.767-04:002015-06-08T17:31:05.767-04:00I dont know...
I am a faithful Catholic , but Bis...I dont know... <br />I am a faithful Catholic , but Bishop Fulton Sheen said already some time back: It up to you , the laity , to save the Church.<br />In my view the Curia is paralyzed to a far extent. If I see the battle around the synod of the family , Cardinal against Cardinal.<br />It is a frontal attack . Cardinal Burke is send away, why? The liberals in the curia made that happen. The only answer and solution to this crises is the holy Virgin. Only our mother Mary can destroy the head of the serpent.<br />That's why I believe that a fifth Marian dogma should be proclaimed. <br />But even the apparitions of Amsterdam - which are approved by the local bishop in 2002 - are being attacked at every level.<br /><br />Amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035807513447284601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-41335468092199021882015-06-08T15:44:50.107-04:002015-06-08T15:44:50.107-04:00Amsterdam,
There have been many, many false appar...Amsterdam,<br /><br />There have been many, many false apparitions (Bayside, etc) who have promoted the Rosary, even Eucharistic adoration - the thing is, neither the Rosary nor adoration helps one if you are believing a heresy. And the devil will allow you to attain 95% truth if he can skewer you in 5%.<br /><br />The fact that an apparition promotes the Rosary, Adoration, etc. means nothing. Garabandal, Bayside, and a ton of fake apparitions have done so as well.<br /><br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76134226144393696792015-06-08T15:35:56.298-04:002015-06-08T15:35:56.298-04:00But what about the fruit of the praying of the ros...But what about the fruit of the praying of the rosary?<br />I think that that - the fact that people in Medjugorje are asked to pray the whole rosary every day is irrefutable proof that it is authentic.<br />The Devil would never - in my opinion - cut so very deep in his own flesh , so to say , that he would promote praying the rosary . <br />The rosary stops the devil in the highest possible way ( after the eucharist).<br />The rosary is the utmost strong weapon against evil and deception, many saints have witnessed about that .Amsterdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035807513447284601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-25120589495369478322011-08-14T14:06:49.372-04:002011-08-14T14:06:49.372-04:00Pro Medjugorje fans like to link their particular ...Pro Medjugorje fans like to link their particular cultish following to vatican ii and its spirit. The ambiguous language in the council documents have provided the church with bad fruits , if you look at the numbers, and yet it could be a blessing as it might be thinning and flushing out the enemies within the church. Medj. on the other hand claim they have nothing but good fruits. Lots of confessions, reception of Holy Communion etc. but as you pointed out, there might be the possibility of a lot of bad communions. It would appear there is no silver lining with Medj. It appears Medj. was tailor made to fit with vat.ii, ambiguity as its vehicle. Now, I wonder if there is a connection to all these masses attributed to Medj. and the fruits of vatican ii, with the novus ordo being a "fruit" of the council? What does the future hold for the NO and medj. if they are not from genuine faith?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19866204427723781332009-11-23T02:36:19.612-05:002009-11-23T02:36:19.612-05:00To Christine July 7, 2009
I am curious as to why ...To Christine July 7, 2009<br /><br />I am curious as to why your understanding of the Gospels requires good feelings rather than self sacrifice and good deeds. I do not know where you would find Jesus condemning the act of condemning bad reasoning. It takes courage, a willingness to endure contempt, and authentic compassion to point out the errors of ideas and social forces that are destructive to the faith even within the Church. And to do so is a requirement of all of us. Taking refuge in words like love and tolerance can slip into a mindset that can easily become indistinguishable from the sort of soft mindedness that has generated tolerance and indifference for all the ravages of the sex revolution including the abortion holocaust.<br /><br />The accusation of judgmental, direct or implied, does seem to be invoked as a stock response whenever destructive beliefs or actions are properly identified as such, and with little sense of irony. On what basis can anyone assume the rightness of judging the wrongness of those designated judgmental. Isn’t this a judgment? From the way the rebuke of judgmental gets applied to anyone forming a moral judgment, you would think there is no difference between judging moral right and moral wrong. Why even consider sitting on a jury?<br /><br />Nonetheless, a truthful and complete reading of the Gospels makes it clear that Jesus describes the objective moral order and requirement of judging right and wrong actions and beliefs. This is different from the moral condemnation of souls, for which we are prohibited. Yet we are always required, as an ultimate act of love, to confront evil. The idea of natural law, which we accept as dogma, means many things, not the least of which is a recognition that right is right no matter who or how few believe it, and wrong is wrong no matter who or how many believe it. <br /><br />Authentic faith would at least consider the pride involved by even wanting a rosary to turn to gold or by visionaries organizing groups, for a fee, to touch the veil or hand of the vision. If we can not remove ourselves from a disinformation campaign with personal animus towards the authority of the local bishops, or ignore the authority of Jesus when he said, “It is an evil generation that looks for a sign”, we can at least have sufficient regard for protecting the honor of Our Holy Mother. <br /><br />Ed BakerVenerationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12014260832773148510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4352599842187869032009-07-07T22:51:00.354-04:002009-07-07T22:51:00.354-04:00Hey Mamasaurus-
Thanks for your comments, but fir...Hey Mamasaurus-<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, but first, my whole blog is not dedicated to ripping Medjugorje...I haven't posted on Medjugorje in months, actually.<br /><br />Secondly, while I accept the spirit of your critique and acknowledge that we all have to be careful on judging others, it is true that we also have to test all things. Let me ask you: what is it about the above critique that you disagree with so much? Is it just the fact that it is a critique? That's no real reason - what is it about this post that bothers you - have I said something untrue? Please enlighten us.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-38264811054465324272009-07-07T13:42:59.727-04:002009-07-07T13:42:59.727-04:00Instead of dedicating a whole blog to proving why ...Instead of dedicating a whole blog to proving why Medugorje is false why don't you use this space to promote love and tolerance...something positive? You're actually fueling the thing you seem to be so against by doing this. This blog just seems rather wasteful to me. Jesus Christ spent his time on this earth as a living example of how we are to live...he didn't spend his time orating about how others were wrong. How are you living in Christ by doing this? Do you really think God wants you to spend your time this way? Tell me, how this is bringing others to God through Christ Jesus?<br />Whether you allow this comment or not, I do hope for your own sake, you take note of it. Such prolific writing would serve a much better purpose if you directed your talent towards witnessing and being an instrument of God's peace. - In Christ, - ChristineThe Mamasaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02908812676613063554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-85823235165399752342009-01-16T01:52:00.000-05:002009-01-16T01:52:00.000-05:00As a Legionary cult survivor, I get so tired and f...As a Legionary cult survivor, I get so tired and frustrated hearing about its "fruits." Good post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-71629488021987162502009-01-15T17:43:00.000-05:002009-01-15T17:43:00.000-05:00Elsewhere than just in connection to Medjugorje I'...Elsewhere than just in connection to Medjugorje I've often wondered about the "fruits" principle.<BR/><BR/>It is true of course that one may judge something by its fruits (which must be considered qualitatively, not quantitatively, as you pointed out), but it is also true that God brings good out of evil. Indeed, that he does so is the only only rational answer to the problem of the existence of evil.<BR/><BR/>So, when you see a good fruit, how can you really judge whether the tree is good, or whether God had drawn good from an evil tree?<BR/><BR/>In practical terms, the "fruits" principle seems a lot more useful in identifying bad trees than good. And this negative application actually seems to be the emphasis in the text you cited from Matthew's Gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com