tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post3207372582753696438..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Apologia pro Christian Rock: Syncopation & Sexualization (part 4)Bonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-15629912941898314462019-07-01T17:33:41.099-04:002019-07-01T17:33:41.099-04:00i agree that it's not really sound to criticiz...i agree that it's not really sound to criticize rock music as inherently bad in its fairly easygoing music structure, and specially not with a silly "sexualizing energy" hypothesis without any evidence. however, i would say that rock is more sensorial music, its backbeat still kept, its uses historically secular, its sonic distortion actually grown over the decades, and the genre perhaps already developed organically in such a secular way into the culture. (heck, even maybe the sound of Elvis and other oldies is already encoded in some DNA lol?). ergo, rock seems to be better for secular reasons, if only extrinsically; in the same way that the TLM seems to give better fruits than the NO in no small part due to the sensorial "pomp" experience of the ancestral forms (and thus would be ruined by guitars playing the organ parts). <br /><br />relatedly, i tend to avoid Christian rock, but have noticed it is mostly Protestant in ethos, focused on "feelings for Jesus" in the lyrics, and emo and/or flowery sentimental sounds in the music. perhaps Catholics, specially the less Anglo and/or more trad ones, are used to different. then again, a lot of Catholics are now sadly used to barebones guitars, accordions, bongos... <br /><br />and no, i don't suggest an alternative, even secular rock itself is less popular than ever. but is interesting how prog rock and metal tend to touch on existential and religious themes; usually in opposition, but with music that calls to mind religious operatic suites. on the other end, the harsher alt/punk rock styles are shorter, and usually the distorted guitars and voices do not lead to contemplation either; though perhaps to some positive alteration depending on lyrics and other aspects of the artist. not all emotion is bad; i am pretty sure the crusaders also sang innocuous yet secular sensorial shanties, and not just prayed. i am also sure they not only played organs in the churches, but carried some lutes and troubadours around. were they to be censored? perhaps if dancing or lyrics got scandalous at times, but doubt so otherwise. <br /><br />perhaps, if toning down the volume but not too much, with enough complexity, and specially enough essence, some Catholic rock can be smart, popular, and even conducive to fruits. heck, some secular artists make admittedly few interesting and poignant songs about spirituality that, perhaps among the shadows, try to reach up to God. if they can do it, why can believers not? surely something could be better than most secular music stomping down Christianity and most church music just grabbing whatever scraps the seculars leave off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58920613805116116342015-09-14T23:12:22.276-04:002015-09-14T23:12:22.276-04:00That is offering facts not in evidence. Although t...That is offering facts not in evidence. Although they may be true, you did not make any connection to the arguments stated within. My guess is that you didn't even read it. Prejudice much?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-35502073666063063252013-11-05T16:35:34.561-05:002013-11-05T16:35:34.561-05:00Anonymous-
Nothing is to stupid for this blog!Anonymous-<br /><br />Nothing is to stupid for this blog!Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-80102601744911034192013-11-05T15:57:06.091-05:002013-11-05T15:57:06.091-05:00I don't know if it's more stupid thinking ...I don't know if it's more stupid thinking that a technique like syncopation (used also in ancient christian music) could be evil per se (but fanatics are everywhere), or wasting time trying to demistify a stupid concept with a blog article....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-18340516331059520312012-07-27T10:59:24.311-04:002012-07-27T10:59:24.311-04:00I came across this blog after reading an interview...I came across this blog after reading an interview in Zenit News from July 26, 2012 which talks about Rock and Roll music. (go to www.zenit.org)<br /><br />Regarding your questions of Fr. Basil Nortz's claims about the effects of rock music on the body, have you considered contacting him directly? I would surmise that if you wrote him a letter or spoke to him on the phone, he would be glad to offer more explanation. From listening to his work "Music and Morality" it seemed clear to me that he was not speaking so much of personal preferences or ideas, but presenting information from several reliable sources, including the rock musicians and those in the industry, themselves, quoting their own aims. <br /><br />It would be interesting to hear Father Nortz's comments. He is probably very busy, so persevere in contacting him. <br /><br />God bless,<br />a musicianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-9322098017210637372010-07-18T22:48:32.907-04:002010-07-18T22:48:32.907-04:00I agree, it's not likely the 'music', ...I agree, it's not likely the 'music', but the lyrics.<br /><br />http://intro2psych.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/music-and-sexualization/<br /><br />That said, there IS something about martial/march music... j/kTopTechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-45049592159546098392010-07-13T22:14:35.474-04:002010-07-13T22:14:35.474-04:00[2]
After you get beyond the backbeat deal, which ...[2]<br />After you get beyond the backbeat deal, which I think is the most visual aspect, there is just a judgement of content: lyrics, style, scene, etc. Music is not neutral, but I can't say that any music is inherently evil. The back beat is FUN. Fun can equal immorality sometimes. There are other things that lead to immorality too. And some rock music can be occassions to sin. Some may be a sin to listen to. I can say that my favorite band is the Grateful Dead. They have written some beautiful songs, with beautiful poetic lyrics. They are musically interesting. Some have a heavy backbeat, some are slow and light. Some are country, bluegrass, and folk flavored. Some others are straight ahead rockers. They put on a great show in the past, and were not about the glitz and glamor, but the music. With all this said, some of their songs I'll avoid. Most are telling stories. Some stories are gritty and sad. But overall I find them sensually pleasing, like a good glass of wine, a cigar, or a game of pool. I don't go to my music to find idols or have it craft my morality. I don't even go to chant for that. It pretty music that takes me somewhere. It's all quiet a sensual experience across the board. I like the chant when I pray. I like the 23 minute "Dark Star" jam when I am washing my car. I like silence in the morning. Etc. I don't slight a Catholic for avoiding some types of music for their soul's sake, I respect that, but we have to put a level head on and not be knee-jerk reactionists, nor legalists. We have to step back and apply the same honest reasoning to music that we applied to the faith when we accepted her.<br /><br />Pax.Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-77848520486358629852010-07-13T22:14:35.475-04:002010-07-13T22:14:35.475-04:00[1]
Boniface,
I stumbled upon this and went back t...[1]<br />Boniface,<br />I stumbled upon this and went back to part one and read all of them. I have to say thank you for your work so far. I have battled with this until recently. I've "battled" mostly because I do take morality serious, and also do not wish to scandalize my neighbor. On that note, I have reached the conclusion that rock music per se (secular or otherwise) is not immoral. I listened to Michael Matt's talk on YouTube ("Music & Culture") and John Vennari ("Mud Houses and Modern Men"), which state the same stuff that other people have. I thought about it, researched african rythmic sensibilities, listened to some folk music from Ireland and England, some bluegrass and country, scanned my past, and also took a sober look at "rock" as a whole. I'm just not convinced. Not even enough to ban all rock "to err on the side of caution".Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-48221102373295938102010-07-13T22:14:05.650-04:002010-07-13T22:14:05.650-04:00Boniface,
I stumbled upon this and went back to pa...Boniface,<br />I stumbled upon this and went back to part one and read all of them. I have to say thank you for your work so far. I have battled with this until recently. I've "battled" mostly because I do take morality serious, and also do not wish to scandalize my neighbor. On that note, I have reached the conclusion that rock music per se (secular or otherwise) is not immoral. I listened to Michael Matt's talk on YouTube ("Music & Culture") and John Vennari ("Mud Houses and Modern Men"), which state the same stuff that other people have. I thought about it, researched african rythmic sensibilities, listened to some folk music from Ireland and England, some bluegrass and country, scanned my past, and also took a sober look at "rock" as a whole. I'm just not convinced. Not even enough to ban all rock "to err on the side of caution". After you get beyond the backbeat deal, which I think is the most visual aspect, there is just a judgement of content: lyrics, style, scene, etc. Music is not neutral, but I can't say that any music is inherently evil. The back beat is FUN. Fun can equal immorality sometimes. There are other things that lead to immorality too. And some rock music can be occassions to sin. Some may be a sin to listen to. I can say that my favorite band is the Grateful Dead. They have written some beautiful songs, with beautiful poetic lyrics. They are musically interesting. Some have a heavy backbeat, some are slow and light. Some are country, bluegrass, and folk flavored. Some others are straight ahead rockers. They put on a great show in the past, and were not about the glitz and glamor, but the music. With all this said, some of their songs I'll avoid. Most are telling stories. Some stories are gritty and sad. But overall I find them sensually pleasing, like a good glass of wine, a cigar, or a game of pool. I don't go to my music to find idols or have it craft my morality. I don't even go to chant for that. It pretty music that takes me somewhere. It's all quiet a sensual experience across the board. I like the chant when I pray. I like the 23 minute "Dark Star" jam when I am washing my car. I like silence in the morning. Etc. I don't slight a Catholic for avoiding some types of music for their soul's sake, I respect that, but we have to put a level head on and not be knee-jerk reactionists, nor legalists. We have to step back and apply the same honest reasoning to music that we applied to the faith when we accepted her.<br /><br />Pax.Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-3561832505868121292010-07-10T10:01:31.664-04:002010-07-10T10:01:31.664-04:00You are correct about one thing for certain; this ...You are correct about one thing for certain; this is my least favorite topic of yours.<br /><br />I will say this... establishing that the rythum, beat, syncopation, etc. is or is not evil, doesn't mean that it's fit for Christian themes. When people apply Christian themes to this music (especially the name of our Lord, the saints, etc.), I find it offensive because the music, by the very nature and intent of rock (sex, drugs, and rock & roll) is not reverent enough for the serious matters of our Faith.Fr.Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-10780786176866679502010-07-09T23:03:14.291-04:002010-07-09T23:03:14.291-04:00Anonymous-
I did not grow up with Christian rock....Anonymous-<br /><br />I did not grow up with Christian rock. I thought Christian rock was stupid when I was growing up.<br /><br />Also, no, I do not think that the beauty of art/music is all in the eye of the beholder, but I do think that <b>some</b> of it is: some people happen to love country music; I can't stand it. Some people think Bach is better than Mozart. Well and good; there is room for disagreement here.<br /><br />That said, I think there is music that is very bad to listen to, and music that is very good to listen to - but my whole point with this series is that, if music is good or evil, it is not because it uses a certain type of beat. It would because of other factors.<br /><br />I notice that you have not in either of your comments actually addressed the arguments I brought up - you have simply suggested that maybe my opinion is due to immaturity. Do you believe that "energy" gets "channeled" through the body when a syncopated beat comes on? What kind of "energy?" Through where is it "channeled?"<br /><br />My objections to this idea about syncopation being bad are not based on my feelings or what I grew up with but on the fact that it is an argument that makes no sense if it is thought out.<br /><br />It is okay to say I am young - I don't take offense - but if you are writing off my objections to this theory (now four posts of them) solely because of my youth, then that is a bit unfair, because as you can see, I have actual reasons for my opinions.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-69463846479126857342010-07-09T19:55:21.275-04:002010-07-09T19:55:21.275-04:00Is it "absolutizing" as you say- and I a...Is it "absolutizing" as you say- and I am not defending all criticism of Rock music- or is it applying the traditional approach to any artistic expressions? Certainly even you would NOT hold to the idiocy that sophism that art (music) is all in the eye of the beholder? I do think that when anyone grows up in a milieu it is extremely hard to really get any true perspective and clarity, even if one is accustomed to silence in their life. I do detect a trace of "I grew up with it- and I am ok- so it must be ok” fallacy.<br />I do think that it very hard to become a true “deep in the bones” traditional Catholic ( that I assume both you and I wish to become) if one is alive today- there is just too much baggage that we all (myself included) carry around that is hard to abandon. Music, art, TV shows we watched, the Civics propaganda that we imbued while in school, Catholic or otherwise. <br />I do come to your blog quite frequently to read your musings- and most of it is informative and even thought provoking Every once in a while it appears to me that you are very young both chronologically and spiritually- no offense intended- just some observations. Thank you for considering the comments- JSWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-86054312228227199362010-07-08T22:26:21.715-04:002010-07-08T22:26:21.715-04:00Neither...just, as a musician of 16 years, think t...Neither...just, as a musician of 16 years, think this theory is bunk. <br /><br />I don't listen to the music I did as a youth, nor do I think this has to do with trying to get "acceptance." I don't even like most rock music, Christian or otherwise. But I have to call it like I see it, and I just think this is a case of Christians trying to absolutize their preferences. I was told the other day by one mom that somebody made these same arguments regarding girls riding horses!<br /><br />I find this whole theory to be absurd, not borne out by facts, the experience of most musicians (most of whom I talk to have never even heard of this theory)or science.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-52996421126689437092010-07-08T22:16:52.015-04:002010-07-08T22:16:52.015-04:00Ummm- Compromising to be accepted by the world- or...Ummm- Compromising to be accepted by the world- or to justify your upbringing/youth? Just asking?<br />JSWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com