tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post3907395258933072633..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Pope John's Council, or, What I've Been Reading Lately (part 1)Bonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-10361874606465301562008-01-03T18:44:00.000-05:002008-01-03T18:44:00.000-05:00Anonymous,Do you know how to reconcile the church'...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Do you know how to reconcile the church's consistent pre-conciliar condemnation of ecumenism with the dramatic turnaround at Vat II? Do you know how to reconcile Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors with the Decree on Religious Liberty? Do you believe that the church's intellectual credibility and the consistency of its teaching means nothing? It is all well and good to say that "I stand with the Magisterium," but unless you believe that the Holy See is able to repeal the logics of logic, then problems like the ones addressed in this blog have to faced. And faced with a little less smugness and condescension too.Tawserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823690750419031274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-57219782272252744682008-01-03T15:55:00.000-05:002008-01-03T15:55:00.000-05:00I think you and all your traditional friends need ...<I>I think you and all your traditional friends need to get over the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass is never going away. You can hope it is all you want, but it is not.</I><BR/><BR/>You simply cannot say that it will "never" go away. People thought things like Investiture, Multiple Benefices and other things that had been part of the Church for hundreds of years would never go away, but eventually they did. It is realistic to believe that the NO could one day vanish.<BR/><BR/><I>If you find spiritual fulfillment in the Tridentine Mass, then by all means celebrate it! I have no problem with that, but if you are suggesting that the Novus Ordo Mass is deficient, that is where I have a problem. You have absolutely no authority to make that judgment, and neither did Michael Davies.</I> <BR/><BR/>The NO is not deficient in the sense that it is invalid, but it certainly is deficient in the sense that it is dummed down with weak theology and is not as consonant with Catholic Tradition. This is not a matter of interpretation, but is the simple truth, which even supporters of the NO admit.<BR/><BR/><I>Only the Magisterium has that authority, and until you can become humble enough to accept the Christ-given authority of the the Magisterium, especially in the context of an ecumenical council, you are always going to be up in arms. You need to be much more humble.</I><BR/><BR/>Nobody is against the Magisterium. In fact, we are supporting the Magisterium, which we understand not to be just the one that happens to be existing now, but the totality of all the papal & conciliar teachings throughout history. What is arrogant is thinking that one Magisterium can suddenly cast off 2,000 years of tradition at a whim.<BR/><BR/><I>If you seriously think that the problems the Church has encountered are as simple as being products of Vatican II's reforms, I think you need to consider how ridiculously simplistic that assertion is. Vatican II came at the beginning of the 1960s, which was the beginning of one of the most turbulent decades. I think you may be ignoring more than a few other cultural factors.</I> <BR/><BR/>I think you're right; the 60's had a lot to do with it. So, why would we want to take our norms from the mindset of the most decadent decade?<BR/><BR/><I>I do not say any of this to degrade your own experiences as a Catholic. If you find fulfillment in the pre-Vatican II Mass, then I suggest you attend that Mass. It is a perfectly valid celebration. I will continue to participate in the ordinary Mass, however. I think you need to be more open minded, more docile, and less judgmental of those things you are uncomfortable with.</I><BR/><BR/>It is not about my "experience," or what I prefer, but about objective reality. The Old Mass is objectively better for the life of the Church, for every Catholic. Period.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76594996724268400662008-01-03T14:02:00.000-05:002008-01-03T14:02:00.000-05:00Great post, Anselm. I would really like to read t...Great post, Anselm. I would really like to read those books. Too bad they're out of print.AquinaSaviohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04415574312846152213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-70517202465805315192008-01-02T15:53:00.000-05:002008-01-02T15:53:00.000-05:00I think you and all your traditional friends need ...I think you and all your traditional friends need to get over the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass is never going away. You can hope it is all you want, but it is not.<BR/><BR/>If you find spiritual fulfillment in the Tridentine Mass, then by all means celebrate it! I have no problem with that, but if you are suggesting that the Novus Ordo Mass is deficient, that is where I have a problem. You have absolutely no authority to make that judgment, and neither did Michael Davies. Only the Magisterium has that authority, and until you can become humble enough to accept the Christ-given authority of the the Magisterium, especially in the context of an ecumenical council, you are always going to be up in arms. You need to be much more humble.<BR/><BR/>If you seriously think that the problems the Church has encountered are as simple as being products of Vatican II's reforms, I think you need to consider how ridiculously simplistic that assertion is. Vatican II came at the beginning of the 1960s, which was the beginning of one of the most turbulent decades. I think you may be ignoring more than a few other cultural factors.<BR/><BR/>I do not say any of this to degrade your own experiences as a Catholic. If you find fulfillment in the pre-Vatican II Mass, then I suggest you attend that Mass. It is a perfectly valid celebration. I will continue to participate in the ordinary Mass, however. I think you need to be more open minded, more docile, and less judgmental of those things you are uncomfortable with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-27783536837415608062008-01-01T15:47:00.000-05:002008-01-01T15:47:00.000-05:00Zach,I don't mind, of course.Boniface,You're certa...Zach,<BR/>I don't mind, of course.<BR/><BR/>Boniface,<BR/>You're certainliy right. Modernism still existed, although it had to go underground so to speak because of the strong stand taken by the popes.<BR/><BR/>I did not mention this as a problem in the Church in need of reform, though, because it was for the most part limited to certain "intellectual" circles, and because it was already being properly handled for the most part. I don't think you could characterize the Church as a whole as "modernist" before Vatican II. <BR/><BR/>So, instead of reforming things that needed to be shaped up, they allowed something that had been to a certain extent bottled up, to become, as you said, mainstream and respectable.<BR/><BR/>Something Davies points out in a later chapter is the fact that Vatican II as an event was actually a chance for all the liberal theologians (periti) to get to know each other over the course of three years, and coordinate their efforts, all the while living in incredible comfort at Vatican expense!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-34997269648735931622007-12-31T07:48:00.000-05:002007-12-31T07:48:00.000-05:00Awesome post, Anselm. Obviously, though, this stuf...Awesome post, Anselm. Obviously, though, this stuff was simmering beneath the surface before it popped up in V2. Already, Modernism had tried making inroads into the Church ever since the time of Vatican I. The turning point at Vatican II was that instead of opposing Modernism with all their strength (ala Pius IX + X), the VII popes embraced it, and thus Modernism became respectable and mainstream instead of underground and despicable.<BR/><BR/>In conclusion, I think we ought to admit that there were problems before Vatican II, but they were the exact <B>opposite</B> types of problems from the ones that are usually cited by progressives.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-63662659284790834742007-12-30T20:42:00.000-05:002007-12-30T20:42:00.000-05:00Wonderful post! I hope that you don't mind me link...Wonderful post! I hope that you don't mind me linking to it from my blog.Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02527741207622749178noreply@blogger.com