tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post4991341894649212856..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Canonization and Papal InfallibilityBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-2870334163613421762014-05-04T10:44:59.531-04:002014-05-04T10:44:59.531-04:00Dear Brother Boniface. Re your observation re Vati...Dear Brother Boniface. Re your observation re Vatican I; we members of the know-it-all society are routinely flummoxed by men of your ilk.<br /><br />Is it really necessary for you to do what you did publicly?:)<br /><br />No. I am jesting, of course. You make a good pointMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-37292355746757602482014-04-30T18:18:47.239-04:002014-04-30T18:18:47.239-04:00Sobre estos papas, es conveniente leer en "ch...<br />Sobre estos papas, es conveniente leer en "chiesaviva" los libros y artículos del Padre Luigi Villa: "quien fué el padre luigi villa; pablo vl¿beato? y sobre Juan XXlll y Juan Pablo ll.<br /><br />El Padre Pío le encomendó a éste sacerdote que investigara y luchara contra la masonería en la Iglesia, y él dedicó gran parte de su vida a ello.<br />También, la "Carta a los Cardenales", en referencia a Pablo Vl.<br /><br />Yo los considero indispensables de leer.Alenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-49503090531637725802014-04-30T17:53:54.256-04:002014-04-30T17:53:54.256-04:00Bornacatholic-
Only difference is at Vatican I th...Bornacatholic-<br /><br />Only difference is at Vatican I the same bishops who drafted the schemas were given an opportunity to amend them in light of episcopal feedback, which ensured continuity with their original intent. At V2, the schemas were scrapped, and power to draft them was taken away from the Commission with the call for elections to the Commissions, which led to a greater rupture as the commissions were taken over by liberals.<br /><br />Regarding decentralization, that may be true about Pius XII, but I hardly think it is a problem right now. It would be nice if what you say would happen, but in reality if the pope devolves power to them, they will continue to shirk their duties and then nobody will do anything at all, either at the diocesan level or at Rome.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-3300963095166896672014-04-30T17:48:45.108-04:002014-04-30T17:48:45.108-04:00The final outcome bore little resemblance to the p...<i>The final outcome bore little resemblance to the preparatory schema, which were eagerly thrown into the garbage as soon as the Council began.</i><br /><br />Dear Beefy. The Schema on the Liturgy was the same as that drafted pre-council.<br /><br />As to the rest of the schemas being rejected, few know that the schemas prepared to Vatican l were also ditched; and for good reason it seems to me.<br /><br />An Ecumenical Council is a gathering of all the Bishops and their education and praxis is at least as important as the oft-times insular ideas of the Roman Curia.<br /><br />I think that the centralisation of nearly everything under the Pontificate of Pope Pius XII was a serious prudential mistake.<br /><br />Of course the Pope is primary and of course he is infallible and his jurisdiction is as universal as it is immediate but centralisation has not been a blessing to the Church and that is one reason I am such a fan of Pope Francis,<br /><br />I think there will be a healthy decentralisation and the Bishops will be forced to discharge the Divinely-Constiuted Duties they have instead of kicking everything up to the Holy See,<br />Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-55528847517581213762014-04-29T17:48:55.264-04:002014-04-29T17:48:55.264-04:00Ben,
I always thought the Catholic Encylopedia ar...Ben,<br /><br />I always thought the Catholic Encylopedia artile on Hesychasm was very helpful, but this is also an interesting read:<br /><br />http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partiiiBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-67643332366378785232014-04-29T17:34:09.552-04:002014-04-29T17:34:09.552-04:00Boniface- thanks, do you happen to know of any goo...Boniface- thanks, do you happen to know of any good or clear general explanations of Palamas's theology and what the perceived problems with him are? <br /><br />I'm asking for my own understanding/learning.I'm not sure what is meant by 'un-created energy's of God' for example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-25838423402910799682014-04-29T16:13:00.149-04:002014-04-29T16:13:00.149-04:00Thanks, Ben.
I know several theologians questions...Thanks, Ben.<br /><br />I know several theologians questions Gregory Palamas, but I also know that there are others who don't, and that while I think personally he believed some material heresies, these were considered open questions in his day. In the famous disputes between himself and Barlaam, who took the Thomist-Western position, neither was condemned as a heretic.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-44291748094927401892014-04-29T15:38:06.224-04:002014-04-29T15:38:06.224-04:00As to the original USC article and of allowing ven...As to the original USC article and of allowing veneration within holy Mass of questionable saints, there is something either overlooked or which the author seems unaware of. (I don’t think it directly affects the infallibility question though)<br /><br />The Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Roman Church, in fact, venerate several people as saints which are not regarded as Saints by the Roman Church. This is done within the liturgy (officially). (I have often sat next to a stained glass window of St. Constantine in the local Ukrainian Catholic Church.) For example Gregory Palamas who is considered a heretic by many western Catholic theologians is commemorated in the liturgy of the Second Sunday of the Great Fast by the UGCC (and others) using liturgical books approved by the Holy See. <br /><br />I think this weakens the ‘if canonizations could be errant it would do damage to the intrinsic holiness of the sacrifice of the Mass’ argument. That being said, the actual conditions required for infallibility, appear (to my ordinary layman’s mind) to be fulfilled. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47016648085012157502014-04-29T14:59:52.837-04:002014-04-29T14:59:52.837-04:00To those baffled as to why some people have an iss...To those baffled as to why some people have an issue with JPII being canonized. It is because he did some scandalizing, disturbing, repugnant and baffling things in the area of ecumenism, which have never been explained. <br />Such as KISSING the Koran. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-59091098541347003692014-04-26T15:55:00.863-04:002014-04-26T15:55:00.863-04:00Dear Bornacatholic,
I have not read Professor Mat...Dear Bornacatholic,<br /><br />I have not read Professor Mattei's book, but I will do so. If Cardinal Ottaviani was indeed calling for an ecumenical council then based on his speeches and writings during and after Vatican II, I daresay he realized he had unleashed a monster. The final outcome bore little resemblance to the preparatory schema, which were eagerly thrown into the garbage as soon as the Council began.<br /><br />Dear Cavaliere,<br /><br />Even if we grant that the Church in Europe was in bad shape before the Council, it's plain that the Council did nothing to arrest the decline and perhaps gave it the last push into the abyss.Beefy Levinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672190212311744730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-19069229053258788292014-04-25T11:58:15.150-04:002014-04-25T11:58:15.150-04:00Rorate has recently posted a very relevant reflect...Rorate has recently posted a very relevant reflection on this matter: <br /><br />http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/04/editorial-note-what-pope-with-lousy.htmlNickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-82194472824354750432014-04-24T23:02:23.512-04:002014-04-24T23:02:23.512-04:00Just as the cloister is built, arranged, adorned, ...Just as the cloister is built, arranged, adorned, to enable the individual religious to live his life more easily, so in Catholic concept, should be the Catholic home. There should be in it emblems of religion, especially a figure of the Crucified; that supreme emblem of unselfishness should adorn the walls of the home and be set over the marriage bed. There should be figures of the saints, prayer books, Catholic books, Catholic newspapers, holy water. People may laugh at these things. They may say: 'But we have parted with all that. That is no longer possible. Why will you force on us the superstitions of an older age?' We say, 'Well, has it changed for the better? What is your married life like after all? Have you now found happiness? Has the world found happiness by removing these sacred things? Is the married life easier because they have forgotten the Holy Family? Is the married life easier with Nazareth forgot? 'Holy water and the old-fashioned gadgets, what have these to do with us?' Well their purpose is o remind you of the sanctity of the room where you live...<br /><br />Sounds like it could have been written in the post-vatican II period right? Well it was written in 1930 in London by the excellent Domincan Fr. Bede Jarrett.Equiti Albo Crucishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18410137254315237608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-17013447647794222142014-04-24T22:00:14.118-04:002014-04-24T22:00:14.118-04:00It is a common misconception to see what appeared ...It is a common misconception to see what appeared to be a healthy Church in the USA as extending to the universal Church. However the opposite was true. The Church in Europe was in terrible shape after the two world wars. In the early 60's before the implementation of Vatican II even Archbishop Lefebvre was lamenting the lack of vocations among other things. I have a book by the late Dominican Bede Jarrett written in 1930 calling on the laity to step and work for a reform of the family life which was even then coming under fire. Problems like contraception and divorce were already taking hold. They did not come about as a result of Vatican II. Equiti Albo Crucishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18410137254315237608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-42011079409622218612014-04-24T18:32:28.520-04:002014-04-24T18:32:28.520-04:00I would wager good money that a gathering of SSPX ...<i>I would wager good money that a gathering of SSPX priests accepts more of Vatican II than a gathering of Jesuits in good standing accepts Trent.</i><br /><br />Dear Beefy. Bad bet :)<br /><br />Trent condemned the very Vagus Bishops and Priests the SSPX represents and it taught that no sins were absolved if the Cleric was a vagus Priest/Bishop.<br /><br />Also, the SSPX schism gets more insane each day. Go read Fellay's filleting of Council, Pope, Church, Mass the other day in regards the Canonistations.<br /><br />He has gone right-round-the-bendMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-14616283198576380292014-04-24T18:28:02.057-04:002014-04-24T18:28:02.057-04:00Dear Beefy. Prof Mattei, in his book, "The Se...Dear Beefy. Prof Mattei, in his book, "The Second Vatican Council (an unwritten story)", wrote about Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani and Ernesto Cardinal Ruffini pressing for an Ecumenical Council in 1948 (during Pius Xll pontificate) owing to heaps of errors in philosophy, morals etc and Pope Pius commissioned a Special Preparatory Commission to study the matter but decided not to call a Council (Prolly a mistake as the errors gained strength).<br /><br />So, on the night of Pope John XXIII's election, the same two Cardinals went to his cell and advocated a Council.<br /><br />Those two were as rock solid orthodox as any Cardinal of the last 100 yearsMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-48283577373823561732014-04-23T15:55:49.481-04:002014-04-23T15:55:49.481-04:00Dear Bornacatholic,
I hear this all the time: &qu...Dear Bornacatholic,<br /><br />I hear this all the time: "The Church in the 1950's had many festering problems and was crying out for reform."<br /><br />What were these vague and mysterious problems that plagued the Church? And why did they require the extreme measure of an ecumenical council to solve? How have they been solved, if at all?<br /><br />The problems of the post-conciliar Church are matters of public record: catastrophic declines in baptisms, confirmations, marriages, vocations, and conversions. In my experience, many of the descriptions of the pre-conciliar Church's problems are unverifiable speculations about the interior states of souls. I am honestly curious to hear what the maladies of the Church were back then. From what I've seen, whatever they were, the cure has proven more destructive than the sickness thus far.Beefy Levinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672190212311744730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-10508707040535249242014-04-23T14:34:05.616-04:002014-04-23T14:34:05.616-04:00Dear Beefy (OK, that was fun to write). I have com...Dear Beefy (OK, that was fun to write). I have completely changed my mind about Vatican Two. I used to agree with your general position but now I think that Cardinal Ottaviani was right to convince Pope John XXIII to call it because barely beneath the surface of a seemingly healthy church was a festering mess that Ottaviani and others needed to be addressed.Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-58436461765243953842014-04-22T12:36:06.359-04:002014-04-22T12:36:06.359-04:00Bornacatholic,
I would wager good money that a ga...Bornacatholic,<br /><br />I would wager good money that a gathering of SSPX priests accepts more of Vatican II than a gathering of Jesuits in good standing accepts Trent.<br /><br />Personally, I don't understand why Traditionalists get so upset over JPII's canonization. As Maximus put it well, he inherited an impossible situation. He had to pick his battles, and I think he fought them well. If I had been in the papal shoes back then, the better part of my days would have been spent hurling thunderous anathemas and excommunications against 90% of the world's bishops. But then that's why I'll never be pope.<br /><br />JXXIII's canonization, on the other hand, is difficult for me. The man may have been personally holy, but it will take centuries for the Church to recover from the damage caused by his council.<br />Beefy Levinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672190212311744730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-65613575902992346362014-04-21T15:43:23.456-04:002014-04-21T15:43:23.456-04:00Dear Brother Boniface. It is clear the Canonisatio...Dear Brother Boniface. It is clear the Canonisations will be infallible but the SSPX's heresy and hate are doing the damage intended- to make the Pope and Holy See suspect in all that it does.<br /><br />I would not have thought I would live to see the day that so many putative Christian Catholics would prefer the lies of a schism over the teachings of the Catholic Church but here we are; and, it will only get worse as the SSPX is never - never - returning to Communion with the Holy See.<br /><br />O, and notice I write, Holy See, not Rome.<br /><br />Part of the mephitic and mendacious machinations of Lefebvre's cult is to aim its rhetorical fire at Rome, not the Holy See.<br /><br />That is because there are still too many Christian Catholics alive who know that it is an infallible teaching that the Holy See will never lose the Faith whereas the condemned "prophecy" of Melanie (LaSalette) that Rome will lose the Faith is the banner behind which the schismatics march - right out of the church Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-46571141436625074722014-04-21T15:32:34.274-04:002014-04-21T15:32:34.274-04:00J23's and JP2's "pontificates" w...<i>J23's and JP2's "pontificates" were not just problematic. Not only that they didn't posses heroic virtue, but they didn't even posses the Catholic Faith since they were heretics and apostates which they shown publicly by words and deeds(especially JP2).</i><br /><br />Marko. You make a monk on Mt Athos seem reasonable. I am sure you know that the judgment you apply to others will be applied to you. Good luck with al of that ...Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-21905182764267409042014-04-19T09:02:34.221-04:002014-04-19T09:02:34.221-04:00Perhaps, to answer your questions succinctly:
1) ...Perhaps, to answer your questions succinctly:<br /><br />1) an outward manifestation of virtue, I think, must be necessary. There must be something by which to be judged. However, heroic virtue need not be exercised perfectly in every facet of one's life. The declaration that a Saint in heaven, however, does show that the person has attained to perfection in virtue.<br /><br />2) the virtue of charity does not supercede other virtues, but since it is that which the others are ordered toward, it is also what enlivens the other virtues to their full capacity. Faith, remember, will pass away in the beatific vision, because it is ordered toward charity.<br /><br />3) Sin and scandal are a hard one to judge, and who to distribute punishment to. To take the example of the Buddha statue at Assisi (not Assisi itself, which is another question) - there is a Papal MC who is to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen. Did JPii specifically command a buddha be on the altar? My hunch is not. However, if his Papal MC either placed it there, or saw it there, but did nothing, then what is to be done? The meeting is a coming together of people of many faiths - does the Pope, upon seeing it for the first time in the presence of all of these religious leaders, have it publicly removed? Perhaps. But then, has he not just closed the door on the possibility of hearing the Gospel message by those assembled through such an act?<br /><br />I am not defending the thing, just trying to demonstrate that, in the heat of the moment, a prudential judgment had to be made, and JPii's seems to have been concerned with upholding the purpose of the gathering, and allowing for the Gospel message to still be heard, rather than the impact that such a thing might have on the faithful not present, upon hearing about the event.<br /><br />4) I understand this to be frustrating, believe me! This is perhaps one of those moments that an increase in the virtue of obedience should be prayed for. And that isn't a flippant comment, either. There is perhaps more virtue in following something which you aren't personally convinced than something you are.<br /><br />It is a hard thing, to be sure. The only other option, though, and I think Boniface would agree, is an introduction of a methodic doubt that has no end to its reach.<br /><br />Blessed Triduum! Be assured of my prayers.Maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15475808618598872845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-32577395577443026712014-04-19T09:01:19.854-04:002014-04-19T09:01:19.854-04:00Blessing or Judgment - that is the truth! The Pope...Blessing or Judgment - that is the truth! The Popes all seem to at least conversationally understand the election as a certain calling by the Holy Spirit through the College of Cardinals. Whether this is an actual call of God, well, I have written elsewhere that this is not necessarily the case. However, it can be certain that God has a "vested interest" in who holds the position, since the See of Rome carries the charism of indefectibility. Even the worst of Popes have never made a contradictory teaching on faith and morals.<br /><br />In this scenario, we could perhaps say that God wills that all Popes be prevented from error regarding faith and morals with his antecedent will.<br /><br />We could say that God wills that John Paul II specifically be Pope with his consequent will, and so vests him with the graces that God wills of all Popes.<br /><br />However, any sin that a particular Pope might commit, we can have assurance that God in no way wills it - just as God cannot in any way will that anyone sin. (Cf. <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#article9" rel="nofollow">ST Iq19a9</a>)<br /><br />Now, in a prudential judgment of a Pope, such as not halting liturgical abuse, we can't have sight of the consequence of the other side of the coin, had he ruled with an iron fist. At the height of an age of disobedience, is the correct way to rule to be an enforcer, or try to be a visible source of unity to all, in order to at least keep people materially inside the fold, so that they might have contact with the graces to embrace the fullness of truth.<br /><br />Regarding positively sinful and scandalous activity, this is in no way willed by God, but we also can't judge another's immediate repentance or final repentance. As I said in my last comment, the visible suffering that JPii went through was something on display to the world - a weak man, desirous of carrying out his duty, but utterly unable to do so.<br /><br />In the end, I don't think the term heroic can be applied simply subjectively, it must be an objective thing also. On the subjective side, there must be a criterion to balance things against, and perhaps poor prudential decisions are outweighed by the charity which the man lived.<br /><br />However, on the objective side, we have the final judgment of the Pope, which allows us to see a model of people who weren't perfect in every aspect of their life, but, by the end of their life had attained to perfection.Maximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15475808618598872845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-61032312622089454502014-04-19T08:11:12.254-04:002014-04-19T08:11:12.254-04:00Lonliest,
All I mean is that the person who occup...Lonliest,<br /><br />All I mean is that the person who occupies the See of Rome is who God wills to occupy it - for one reason or another. This is simply an extension of the traditional teaching that we are to see God's will in all things - the circumstances I have been placed in, the authorities God puts over us, the conditions of our life are all part of God's providence. God does have a vested interest in who occupies the See of Peter because of the charism of infallibility attached to it; but as I said, to what God's purpose is, I don't know. God could have willed a certain pope to bring about judgment and chaos rather than blessing, and this is where the conservative approach to the papacy is always errant because they refuse to admit this.<br /><br />Incidentally, the other day I read an encyclical of Leo XIII where he said that the pope had been "chosen by God" but I can't remember where I saw it.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8684195899418515502014-04-19T07:33:35.960-04:002014-04-19T07:33:35.960-04:00Also, couldn't we say if that the Pope was han...Also, couldn't we say if that the Pope was hand-picked by God, all votes by the cardinals would be in favor of the chosen Pope?<br /><br />It's one thing to say that God's permits a certain pope according to His permissive will, but another to say that He chooses the Pope, isn't it?Not That Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14793694853324262365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-41359145298627936092014-04-19T07:30:39.173-04:002014-04-19T07:30:39.173-04:00"I think we must say that every Pope is chose..."I think we must say that every Pope is chosen by God in some fashion...the real question is whether he is chosen for a blessing or a judgment. "<br /><br />1-Can you explain why you think we must say that every Pope is chosen by God? What supports that idea?<br /><br />2-If that's true, and if a particular Pope is chosen for judgment, I don't understand how that would make anything better than the bad situation already in place which prompted the judgment. In other words, wouldn't a 'bad pope' as a judgment upon the people simply make matter worse, further entrenching them in their sin and error?Not That Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14793694853324262365noreply@blogger.com