tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post5534616149887078522..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Papal Nullification: Revisiting the Cadaver SynodBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4452761688066137442019-10-22T12:40:05.125-04:002019-10-22T12:40:05.125-04:00@rohrbachs This is why I'm more and more convi...@rohrbachs This is why I'm more and more convinced that the idea of the Peaceful, Universal Acceptance of a Pope is a dogmatic fact. Otherwise you have chaos.SeeGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03033166940796515453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-10302777001000650452019-10-22T12:04:49.844-04:002019-10-22T12:04:49.844-04:00Pulex put his finger on the problem.Pulex put his finger on the problem.rohrbachshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04722943198206882445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-30673980736755099792019-10-11T03:09:04.144-04:002019-10-11T03:09:04.144-04:00There is an additional consideration about the Pop...There is an additional consideration about the Pope Stephen's claim that Formosus was not validly elected. Should a future Pope claim this about Francis, it would mean that the successor himself, too, is no Pope at all because most of his electors were no cardinals.<br />Pulexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164993172745639593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-35158304011236676582019-10-10T14:03:49.120-04:002019-10-10T14:03:49.120-04:00I chose it for two reasons:
(1) Popes often undo ...I chose it for two reasons:<br /><br />(1) Popes often undo the actions of previous popes just because they need to be updated or they want to do something new; this episode provides examples of popes doing it out of a desire to condemn the memory of the previous pope, which is more akin to what we'd see in the future vis-a-vis Francis.<br /><br />(2) It is just a very striking and memorable episode. The real problem with these stories is simply the attack on the Orders of Pope Formosus. If that was omitted, I don't think this would have been handled that poorly.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24835401190653803102019-10-10T13:59:25.842-04:002019-10-10T13:59:25.842-04:00In that case I agree with you, and likely misunder...In that case I agree with you, and likely misunderstood your point. I guess I'm just puzzled as to why you would choose the Cadaver Synod as an example of how papal juridical acts can be reversed since, as you note, papal juridical acts are reversed all the time and if anything the Cadaver Synod is a textbook case in how not to go about it.donnienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47725450981035908052019-10-10T13:13:12.173-04:002019-10-10T13:13:12.173-04:00I'm familiar with Mr. Larson's work; I mys...I'm familiar with Mr. Larson's work; I myself edited and published one of his books.<br /><br />Nobody is saying that a pope can judge a previous pope, but a pope certainly can undo his juridical acts, which is what this is all about. It happened all the time.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-49734105370274888732019-10-10T13:11:06.982-04:002019-10-10T13:11:06.982-04:00"The Church has never considered that his act...<i>"The Church has never considered that his acts stand. They never stood. They were a dead letter when he issued them. I can't explain that, but that's the fact."</i><br /><br />I think James Larson's take* on this fact is most sensible - Popes do not have the authority to judge their predecessors. Sergius's acts were a dead letter when he issued them because they were outside the scope of his authority. Indeed, the Cadaver Synod's original decrees with regard to Pope Formosus were a dead letter upon issuance for the same reason.<br /><br />In general I think it is wrong-headed to imagine that the successor of Peter can be effectively "impeached", whether today or after his death, like a common secular President. The Pope is basically a (very human) monarch. People have forgotten how to be when it comes to monarchs. <br /><br />*Larson's thoughts can be found about two-thirds of the way through the below essay, which is well worth reading in its entirety:<br />http://waragainstbeing.com/partx/donnienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-79875522486766784392019-10-10T11:32:42.840-04:002019-10-10T11:32:42.840-04:00Great work as always, sir. Keep 'em coming.Great work as always, sir. Keep 'em coming. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-17541761882360031102019-10-01T14:56:06.990-04:002019-10-01T14:56:06.990-04:00I would imagine not just Francis, but the entire V...I would imagine not just Francis, but the entire Vatican II era will be forgotten/ignored like 1970s polyester leisure suits.c mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47041790783981748402019-09-27T14:27:48.516-04:002019-09-27T14:27:48.516-04:00@Unknown-
1) Probably? In the whole history of th...@Unknown-<br /><br />1) Probably? In the whole history of the Church no papal election has ever been <b>successfully</b> contested. There are grounds for a papal election to be considered invalid, but they've never been met. That's why I argue in the article that Stephen was way overreaching when he tried to argue Formosus' invalidity. Of course the principle you reference was not worked out or understood then, so I am assuming Stephen was ignorant of it.<br /><br />2) The Church has never considered that his acts stand. They never stood. They were a dead letter when he issued them. I can't explain that, but that's the fact.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-54770655490708313662019-09-27T14:17:40.133-04:002019-09-27T14:17:40.133-04:00Hi Boniface, two problems here I'm hoping you ...Hi Boniface, two problems here I'm hoping you can shed light on: <br /><br />1) Wouldn't the principle of the Peaceful and Universal Acceptance of a Pope (apparently a Dogmatic Fact) "override" the ability of Stephen VI to declare the papal election of Formosus invalid? More on PUA here: http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html<br /><br />2) If Sergius III had the last word on the matter, do his acts still stand or are they simply considered errors and ignored? In other words, can the Church simply "ignore" the disciplinary decrees of Sergius III if there have never been officially invalidated?SeeGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03033166940796515453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-51839223642314588882019-09-27T06:12:49.601-04:002019-09-27T06:12:49.601-04:00I have a sense of this as well. We all imagine som...I have a sense of this as well. We all imagine some great council or pope to reverse what has happened, and that it won't be reversed itself later. What's more likely to happen is that slowly we'll return to tradition which will merge with the novelties, and then this embarrassing period will be forgotten, perhaps hundreds of years from now.Karlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-18962508398037028712019-09-26T21:10:03.527-04:002019-09-26T21:10:03.527-04:00Hear, hear, Boniface, such a breath of fresh air t...Hear, hear, Boniface, such a breath of fresh air to contemplate such an articulate, level-headed argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com