tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post6053708107790263347..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Genocide of Joshua (part 3)Bonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-76327058343190578482019-05-23T14:54:11.599-04:002019-05-23T14:54:11.599-04:00Great read!
ST. Augustine is clear on the command...Great read!<br /><br />ST. Augustine is clear on the command from God to exterminate the inhabitants of Canaan:<br /><br />XVI. (Ib. XI, 14, 15.) "<i><b>God justified the reproach (shame, infamy or disgrace) of cruelty towards the Canaanites.</b></i> "Joshua left no living being in this city; the orders which the Lord gave to Moses, his servant, are the same as Moses gave to Joshua; and Joshua fulfills them all; He did not fail to perform any of the things that the Lord had commanded Moses. That Joshua did not leave any living being in the cities from which he took possession, no one can reproach him for cruelty, <i><b>since God had given him the orde</b></i>.<br /><br />--St. Augustine, Questions on Joshua- French <br /><br />https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/joshua/st-augustine-questions-on-joshua--frenchMike IIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179136074374111914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-75178270247431640342016-08-20T04:40:01.279-04:002016-08-20T04:40:01.279-04:00Perhaps this dilemma can be solved by qualifying t...Perhaps this dilemma can be solved by qualifying the precept, "it is evil to kill the innocent".<br />This ought to read: "it is evil to kill one's neighbour without legal sanction" (murder).<br /><br />The Canaanites were not neighbours or allies. There was not a state of peace between Israel and the Canaanites. They were at war, and you are allowed to kill the enemy at war whether he is a privately just and innocent man or not. This is because when you kill an enemy in war, you are not killing him as a private person, but your intention is to attack the public body with whom you are at war.<br /><br />Now it's just a matter of acknowledging that the Canaanite women and children were enemies in war. This may not agree with modern notions of "combatant" and "non-combatant", but I believe such a distinction is probably false, certainly in the context of ancient warfare. What do you think would have happened if the Israelites allowed the Canaanite women and children to live? Probably a few generations you would have the same problem again. You can't take them in and incorporate either as slaves or citizens, because they will be rebellious after having just lost their fathers and husbands to you. <br /><br />The Israelites didn't kill Canaanite children because they were innocent children. That would obviously be murder of the most wicked sort. They killed them because they were <i>Canaanites</i>, because they belonged to that nation with whom they were at war. It doesn't make sense to say that you can kill the men but not the babies, because those babies are men (and women that will breed men) in just a few years. They didn't slaughter them under the aspect of children, but under the aspect of the enemy. If that sounds inhumane it's probably because you are too used to living in a peaceful land. If you grew up surrounded by enemies that wanted to rape your wives and daughters and slaughter you, you probably would understand why killing the children that would grow up with such desires would not be unjust.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858873453982708283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-49360397711121265302016-01-26T14:33:16.884-05:002016-01-26T14:33:16.884-05:00A very interesting and valiant attempt to defend t...A very interesting and valiant attempt to defend the genocide passages. Given what we know about God's Goodness, the Ten Commandments, natural law, etc. I don't think you succeed:<br /><br />http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2014/08/on_paul_copans_attempted_solut.html<br /><br />But I think you do an excellent job of making a serious case.Jeffrey S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10411126704920184190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-74189565196136623822015-01-04T17:33:22.549-05:002015-01-04T17:33:22.549-05:00Many thanks for this series about Joshua. It was v...Many thanks for this series about Joshua. It was very revealing. Hats off for steering clear of Modernist biblical criticism which seems an easy way out but isn't one at all as it merely explains things away without really explaining them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-8788884198985692132014-07-12T15:27:52.558-04:002014-07-12T15:27:52.558-04:00If it is not murder when the State ordains a perso...<i>If it is not murder when the State ordains a person's death, what about when the Roman State ordained the deaths of Christians? Or when any other corrupt State ordains deaths? Can we believe this is the will of God?</i><br /><br />There is a difference between the state abusing its power to put to death innocent people and the state using its legitimate power to put to death offenders guilty of capital crimes. The state has no right to put anybody to death per se, but it does have the right to punish those guilty of capital crimes with death. And yes, this can be the will of God because it says as much in Genesis: <br /><br />"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man." (Gen. 9:6)Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-90325634901215150822014-07-10T10:58:00.860-04:002014-07-10T10:58:00.860-04:00If it is not murder when the State ordains a perso...If it is not murder when the State ordains a person's death, what about when the Roman State ordained the deaths of Christians? Or when any other corrupt State ordains deaths? Can we believe this is the will of God?Pam H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11203474273895032725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-48480824860281631532009-11-01T19:32:48.516-05:002009-11-01T19:32:48.516-05:00Michael-
I responded to your query on Nihil Obsta...Michael-<br /><br />I responded to your query on Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. Please see this post-<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2009/11/authority-of-nihil-obstat-and.html<br /><br />Something on Geocentrism coming soon...<br /><br />BonifaceBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-39841386870565165582009-10-30T10:22:14.780-04:002009-10-30T10:22:14.780-04:00Boniface,
I know this is not the proper place to ...Boniface,<br /><br />I know this is not the proper place to post this question but I know of no other way to ask you this. After linking to other sites and references posted by others on your blog, I noticed that the Geocentric model is popular with Robert Sungenis and possibly others. I have been interested in this for quite some time but was told by others that I was crazy if I actually thought that Galileo was wrong. I would like to get your take on this if you are qualified to do so. Please let me know if you feel that it is crazy to believe the Geocentric model. Even a link to sources that represent your view would be good.<br /><br />Thanks!MEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-29353250153517868632009-10-28T11:51:35.403-04:002009-10-28T11:51:35.403-04:00Thanks.Thanks.MEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-83919545034158948512009-10-28T11:13:24.881-04:002009-10-28T11:13:24.881-04:00MIchael-
A reading guide or commentary (unless it...MIchael-<br /><br />A reading guide or commentary (unless it sby a saint or something) possesses very little authority, even if it has an imprimatur (something I will go into in a future post). The NAB in particular has what my co-blogger Anselm has called a "poisonous" commentary - I recommend this article from 2007 on the NAB commentary:<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/12/new-american-bible-st-joseph-edition.html<br /><br />This is also a good one, though not dealing with Joshua directly ("Ten Signs You Have a Bad Bible Commentary"): <br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/12/ten-signs-you-have-bad-bible-commentary.html<br /><br />Ai and Jericho are certainly historical. Joshua is a historical book - rememeber, though, the historicity of the book is a different question from whether or not the book is historical : the former pertains to accuracy, the latter to genre.<br /><br />I think I'd better just do a new post on this. Keep your eyes open.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-87634236503200726582009-10-28T10:36:49.556-04:002009-10-28T10:36:49.556-04:00Boniface,
In the New American Catholic Study Bibl...Boniface,<br /><br />In the New American Catholic Study Bible, 2nd Addition, there is commentary in the reading guide that says that the taking of Jericho, Ai and Gibeon were not historical events. I was given this text along with a paragraph out of a New Jerome that I do not have handy since I do not have my own New Jerome. My question to you is, what exactly is Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur because this Study Bible claims both. I need to know if the Reading Guide in a Study Bible holds the same authority as a standard Bible or an Encyclical. If it does, then what?<br /><br />MichaelMEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-84630166064250184702009-10-23T10:49:33.497-04:002009-10-23T10:49:33.497-04:00Thank you for the links. I will go and research t...Thank you for the links. I will go and research them. <br /><br />I did read all the parts of the Joshua post. They are quite revealing.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />MichaelMEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-73231607374001301892009-10-22T20:29:04.667-04:002009-10-22T20:29:04.667-04:00Genre...
That's just the thing, the genre of ...Genre...<br /><br />That's just the thing, the genre of Joshua is HISTORY. Joshua is a historical book, just like Exodus, Kings, Judges, etc. Had they brought up genre with regards to Song of Songs or Psalms we might have a discussion...but Joshua is solidly history. Even secular authorities admit this. They may deny that Joshua is historically <i>accurate</i>, but nobody seriously denies that it is in the historical genre. <br /><br />Here is an interesting quote from Benedict XV's Spiritus Paraclitus (1920):<br /><br />"Yet no one can pretend that certain recent writers really adhere to these limitations… Their notion is that only what concerns religion is intended and taught by God in Scripture, and that all the rest - things concerning 'profane knowledge,' the garments in which Divine truth is presented - God merely permits, and even leaves to the individual author's greater or less knowledge…" (Spiritus Paraclitus, 19).<br /><br />For more quotes on this, check the following post: <br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/02/in-class-on-pentateuch-this-week-we.html<br /><br /><br />I've never heard of "Margaret Ralph" but I would question this book. This woman seems to be of the liberal-progressivist bent. The Church has been very serious about preserving the histrocity of the Scriptures. See the following three posts:<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/05/revisiting-pontifical-biblical.html<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/05/revisiting-pontifical-biblical_28.html<br /><br />http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/07/revisiting-pontifical-biblical.html<br /><br />Here is a good compilation of all Magisterial documents on Scripture study:<br /><br />http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/<br /><br />I hope, by the way, that you viewed Part I and Part II of the Joshua post.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-18058904982561521832009-10-22T16:24:21.887-04:002009-10-22T16:24:21.887-04:00Boniface,
I agree with you. I am looking for leg...Boniface,<br /><br />I agree with you. I am looking for legitimate Catholic teachings to refute this position presented by this person. I strongly disagree but he gave me a book, "And God said what?" to read by Margaret Ralph. I find her writings are a bit concerning to me but she seems to be a reputable author for the Church. I sent this article to this class leader and he started warning me about misinterpreting things and that I need to look at the "genre". I know "genre" is important but it can get very subjective, and then where do you draw the line?<br /><br />Can you point me in the right direction concerning Church documents or quotes other than the one you just gave me?MEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-62557205874071602322009-10-22T15:56:16.759-04:002009-10-22T15:56:16.759-04:00Michael-
Joshua is clearly one of the historical ...Michael-<br /><br />Joshua is clearly one of the historical books of the Bible, and I am not aware of anys erious exegete who thinks these things did not really happen.<br /><br />I would be wary of any such attempts:<br /><br /><i>"Finally it is absolutely wrong and forbidden 'either to narrow inspiration to certain passages of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred,' since divine inspiration 'not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and constant faith of the Church'" (Divino Afflante Spiritu, 3).</i>Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4501725796937471472009-10-22T15:34:33.279-04:002009-10-22T15:34:33.279-04:00Boniface,
It seems that you do not subscribe to t...Boniface,<br /><br />It seems that you do not subscribe to the idea that this event was fictional and did not really happen but was a story to bring forth revelation. Do you know of Margaret Nutting Ralph?<br /><br />I am going through RCIA and am debating this topic with on of the group leaders.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />MichaelMEPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-24793921378542817962009-07-22T12:34:22.726-04:002009-07-22T12:34:22.726-04:00Phillip, Thanks for the answer. The reason I was a...Phillip, Thanks for the answer. The reason I was asking about dispensations has to do with the issue of what God asked Joshua to do, and that, if there are no dispensations, is it possible we could be asked to do the same thing again? Put another way, was there something particular about that time and place that brought about God's command to destroy? Related to that, could we say, in the same spirit God tells Job, that God knew the poison of the Canaanites was such that they needed to be dealt with in this way, and no other--that He knew the future and saw no other means?<br />And what role do Jesus' commands about dealing with our enemies play here? Do they cancel out the possibility of being asked to do what Joshua did? (BTW I ask that as a just war believer, not as a pacifist.) DaveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-67135851142856914852009-07-15T13:44:28.763-04:002009-07-15T13:44:28.763-04:00Dave,
Thanks for the compliments, and welcome to ...Dave,<br /><br />Thanks for the compliments, and welcome to the Church!<br /><br />First, regarding God's relationship with Israel in the OT, it is too much for me to go into here. I suggest you read the Catechism's sections on Israel, which basically says that Israel was the first people that God chose to reveal Himself to - the beachhead of what would be an invasion and conquest of all humanity. He related to them as people in a childlike state - leading the, showing them what He is like, correcting them- until humanity, and Israel, reached "the fullness of time" when they were ready for the completion of the revelation in Christ, which negated nothing of what came before but fulfilled it all.<br /><br />Regarding the "dispensations," the Church does not adopt this thinking. The dispensationalist thinking is that God judges men according to different moral standards in different periods, essentially saying that the natural law is mutable. But if something was wrong in the OT, it is still wrong now. God may choose to overlook certain things (like divorce, in the OT), but they were always wrong. "God is the same yesterday, today and forever." Whatever was proscribed in the OT is still wrong today, and vice versa.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-79083975363934606182009-07-14T19:10:39.065-04:002009-07-14T19:10:39.065-04:00I'm very late to this, but since there's n...I'm very late to this, but since there's no comments for part 3, I'll have at it. What is your understanding of God's relationship with Israel in the OT? How does a Catholic approach deal with the kind of relationship that God has with them, one in which they are commanded to destroy life? As a newbie Catholic who was raised Baptist, I know the latter group talks a lot about "dispensations" and how there are several of them both in the course of the Bible and during the time of the Church, but what does Rome say?<br />By the way, kudos for taking on a really tough subject!<br />Dave S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com