tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post7470643475159181134..comments2024-03-22T18:43:00.710-04:00Comments on Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Reform of the Reform: Liturgical Russian RouletteBonifacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-73402231159775195382022-12-11T16:30:09.162-05:002022-12-11T16:30:09.162-05:00Maybe...but such has not generally been the case. ...Maybe...but such has not generally been the case. <br /><br />It seems you think I am saying this priest shouldn't be doing what he is doing or something, which is 100% not the point nor the argument.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-78516898412930120922022-12-11T16:23:35.701-05:002022-12-11T16:23:35.701-05:00@Boniface
Firstly: Who knows? Maybe his priestly s...@Boniface<br />Firstly: Who knows? Maybe his priestly style inspires several young men to follow his example as priests themselves, after what he might encounter a bishop who lets him found a priestly community entrusted with the permanent care of one or several parishes.<br /><br />Secondly: Only if there aren’t enough other priests and (future) bishops with the same mindset. Just another reason to encourage and imitate initiatives like this, rather than dismissing them as something futile. The latter would just become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we let pessimism rule the way we act, evidently nothing will succeed.<br /><br />Thirdly: Even if, due to reasons that are beyond the capacities and responsibilities of this one priest, his efforts would turn out to be unmade in the future, he would still be able to look back at having done the best he could with the talents given to him, to the best for his own soul and for the parishioners who were lucky enough to have him as their pastor.<br />Deacon Gustav Ahlmanhttp://www.kristuskonungen.senoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-33728901485071164222022-12-11T15:52:21.826-05:002022-12-11T15:52:21.826-05:00@Deacon Gustav,
He does do a wonderful job and he...@Deacon Gustav,<br /><br />He does do a wonderful job and he is a fine model. That's not in question. The issue isn't whether he is a fine priest; the issue is that what he is doing will ultimately be undone.<br />Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-14282942298016050172022-12-11T15:36:14.555-05:002022-12-11T15:36:14.555-05:00The shape of the liturgy is something that we rece...The shape of the liturgy is something that we receive from the Church, not something that we decide on ourselves. Therefore, this priest seems to me like a wonderful model for all priests by his efforts to celebrate the liturgy in a way as beautiful, traditional and fruitful as possible within the frame of what the Catholic Church today defines as the official liturgy of the roman rite. I would be very happy to come in touch with him.Deacon Gustav Ahlmanhttp://www.kristuskonungen.senoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-47041655568029973102022-12-09T21:24:54.236-05:002022-12-09T21:24:54.236-05:00Unfortunately, the Ordinariate liturgy is basicall...Unfortunately, the Ordinariate liturgy is basically the NO with some traditional options grafted in. The biggest plus is the addition of the traditional offertory though the new one is still an option (that I doubt many ever avail themselves of), the Roman Canon is one of two “Eucharistic prayers” (the other being II, but again I don’t think anyone really ever uses it and it is not to be used on Sundays), and various things like the prayers at the foot, the subdeacon and Ember and Rogation days are added back in but the 3 year lectionary is used and it’s explicitly said to be derived from the NO even though it can be said to look very much like the TLM. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-36745415892753052452022-12-08T15:13:35.336-05:002022-12-08T15:13:35.336-05:00@David,
This is a fair point and good question.
...@David,<br /><br />This is a fair point and good question.<br /><br />First, while introducing people to traditional elements is always praiseworthy and morally good, it is not always strategically sound, which is the point of the article. I would never say it is not "good" to introduce someone to tradition, regardless of the context. I would question whether such initiatives are destined to succeed or not.<br /><br />As to the RotR, I define it as attempts to give the Novus Ordo a traditional orientation but anchoring the NO to traditional elements. I do not include the Anglican Ordinariate in the RotR because (as I understand it), the Anglican Ordinariate has its own liturgy that is not the NO. Being older than the NO, it has its own specific form and concrete shape that is not subject to the fluctuating options of the NO. Unless I am completely wrong about what the AO even is, as I admit I know little about it.<br /><br />RotR is specifically about the NO, and my observations are limited to that, not to any attempts at reverence outside of the TLM.Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-44601500493951166772022-12-08T14:00:51.172-05:002022-12-08T14:00:51.172-05:00This article does a good job of outlining the weak...This article does a good job of outlining the weakness inherent in an individual priest’s efforts to implement traditional liturgical customs within the context of the Novus Ordo. However, I am not convinced that this discredits ROTR as such, depending on how one defines ROTR. If ROTR is solely defined as “traditionalizing” the Novus Ordo on a priest by priest basis than I have no argument with the inherent weakness of this approach. On the other hand, if ROTR refers more broadly to ANY steps to encourage, develop, restore or promulgate a liturgy that is less of a breach with tradition than the Novus Ordo but which is also not the TLM than I am not sure I am convinced of any inherent reason this could not work. For example, do you consider the liturgy of the Anglican Ordinariate to be an instance of ROTR? If so, do you think it is an inherently unsuitable mechanism for long term restoration of liturgical sanity? If you would not consider this to be be ROTR, than how would you define ROTR? Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08201647870635418554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-88726442174111124782022-12-06T17:09:55.637-05:002022-12-06T17:09:55.637-05:00@Duke thanks!
@Paul, TWO HOURS!? How do y'all...@Duke thanks!<br /><br />@Paul, TWO HOURS!? How do y'all have the time!? LOLBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-66609676842345245832022-12-06T16:43:28.252-05:002022-12-06T16:43:28.252-05:00Thanks for great article. There is however one typ...Thanks for great article. There is however one typo towards the end - "His replacement will go get rid of versus populum and phase out the Latin." - should say ad orientem.Dukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6086833995941525990.post-4202037781324226272022-12-06T07:55:45.441-05:002022-12-06T07:55:45.441-05:00Oh man, glad I'm not the only one with such RO...Oh man, glad I'm not the only one with such ROTR reservations. A friend sent me this podcast recently that could have been the priest you describe in this post. They make some convincing ROTR arguments, but ultimately I kept going back to the reality of the situation you describe in this post--that the foundation of the NO is built on shifting sand--and I couldn't buy in. I'm glad to see you recognize the difficult position of the priest just wanting to do the right thing given his limitations; but the fact that he is in this untenable position at all speaks to the downsides and unsustainability of the ROTR arguments. Anyway, here is the podcast my friend sent me. It's about two hours, fyi: https://catholicstuffpodcast.com/podcast/2022/11/17/the-liturgical-ideal-of-the-church.html<br /> Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07709835494925654060noreply@blogger.com