A fan of this blog recently forwarded me a list of the speaking engagements scheduled for alleged Medjugorje seer Ivan Dragicevic this year, including one in a parish very near to me. An email apparently being sent by the parish hosting Ivan was forwarded to me which contained the speaking schedule- at the bottom was this remark: "Ivan's speaking schedule for Michigan. 4:30pm to 8:00pm. You can be present for the apparition at 6:40."
I can be present for the 6:40 apparition!? Isn't that convenient - that gives me time to run home and grab dinner and then get back up there in by 6:40. I hope its over by 8:00 because I have to get to bed early. No, seriously - does anybody see anything wrong here? Can you imagine any other saint or visionary publicizing not only the fact that they have apparitions but inviting people to them as if it was a evening get together? This is especially outrageous given the subject of my post immediately previous to this one. But Ivan's got it's all scheduled out for him-the Blessed Mother in his pocket. Start speaking at 4:30, apparition at 6:40, done by 8:00. And how much money does he get paid for going to all these places? (you can see his schedule here)
Here's what Ivan has to say about his appartitions:
The apparitions have made a big difference in my life - the difference between heaven and earth [That's it? They've made a big difference? That's the best language you can come up with the describe 22,000 encounters with the Mother of God?]. For example, I arrange my day now so that even during the day I find time to pray [That's good. Over 22,000 apparitions and he has now found time to pray]. Before, my life had no meaning. Now, I'm filled with inner contentment [Of the Eckhart Tolle type?]. The first time I saw Our Lady, a change occurred in my soul, and in my heart. Before, I often avoided prayer, but now the difference is so great, I really can't describe it. I'm no longer sorry that Our Lady revealed my future. I'm confident and not afraid, because I know who leads me, and therefore, I'm not afraid of death. People in our parish, and all people, should feel that way.
I can be present for the 6:40 apparition!? Isn't that convenient - that gives me time to run home and grab dinner and then get back up there in by 6:40. I hope its over by 8:00 because I have to get to bed early. No, seriously - does anybody see anything wrong here? Can you imagine any other saint or visionary publicizing not only the fact that they have apparitions but inviting people to them as if it was a evening get together? This is especially outrageous given the subject of my post immediately previous to this one. But Ivan's got it's all scheduled out for him-the Blessed Mother in his pocket. Start speaking at 4:30, apparition at 6:40, done by 8:00. And how much money does he get paid for going to all these places? (you can see his schedule here)
Here's what Ivan has to say about his appartitions:
The apparitions have made a big difference in my life - the difference between heaven and earth [That's it? They've made a big difference? That's the best language you can come up with the describe 22,000 encounters with the Mother of God?]. For example, I arrange my day now so that even during the day I find time to pray [That's good. Over 22,000 apparitions and he has now found time to pray]. Before, my life had no meaning. Now, I'm filled with inner contentment [Of the Eckhart Tolle type?]. The first time I saw Our Lady, a change occurred in my soul, and in my heart. Before, I often avoided prayer, but now the difference is so great, I really can't describe it. I'm no longer sorry that Our Lady revealed my future. I'm confident and not afraid, because I know who leads me, and therefore, I'm not afraid of death. People in our parish, and all people, should feel that way.
I'm sorry for being so cynical, but this whole Medjugorje thing has to stop. Yes, I know people go to Confession and convert there, yes I know people pray the Rosary, blah blah. But when it comes down to it this whole phenomenon is based on a lie, and that's my problem with it.
In reviewing approved Marian apparitions, it was not uncommon for the visionaries to be instructed or to know when and where the next apparition would occur - so I don't think knowing the date, time and place of the next apparition disqualifies the veracity of a visionary. I'm curious what qualifies you to state that the apparitions are a lie. Even the Vatican has not proclaimed such a statement. Priests, psychologists and medical doctors that are smarter than you or me, and who were skeptical became convinced the apparitions are real. If you indeed are close to where Ivan will be, you should go. At least then, you can say you've seen the alleged visionary and been present for the alleged apparition. If you have the opportunity and don't take it, it really diminishes your stand on this issue. I would also suggest you read "Our Lady of Kibeho" by Immaculee about an approved Marian apparition that occurred during the same time as Medjugorje. Some of the accounts of visionaries there are even more difficult to believe than those at Medjugorje - yet three of those visionaries were still acknowledged by the Church as approved.
ReplyDeleteBoniface said: “...and that’s my problem with it.”
ReplyDeleteAn honest self-confession. The problem isn’t Medjugorje or Ivan or the apparitions, the problem belongs to Boniface in his understanding and acceptance. He says so.
So just because one has a problem with understanding or accepting does that justify the sarcasm in the second para?
I don’t think so.
Feel free to express concerns and doubts but with a more charitable manner. Isn’t that what our faith asks of us. Christian love?
Yeah, if Medjugorje is good enough for JPII, it is good enough for me....
ReplyDeleteoh, I forgot. .... he never visited there (preferred to go to a Church only 100 miles away or so), and he never gave it recognition.
And I believe priests, all priests, are still forbidden to lead a pilgrimage there..... join, but NOT lead.
hhmmmm
By the way..... I did attend a speech by Ivan. I was amazed..... at how many said they should have just stayed home. They compared him to a Nancy Fowler and the other discredited "visionaries".... (and I guess that would include Tom Monaghan :( )
Too many Catholics seem to forget that while some of a message may be good, there is no guarantee from whom the message comes.
Satan is a clever dude.... and IMHO he has an long-term agenda with many of these seers.
Stick to Fatima, Lourdes, Akita, etc.
or better yet.....
Spend an hour or two in Adoration where you can actually SEE the Divine.
.
I have a question for the last 2 commenters. Do you read this site regularly, or do you sit around Googling for blog posts about Medjugorje every day so you can comment on them?
ReplyDeleteYou have to admit that Ivan's comments were rather bland and vague. The Mother of God hasn't appeared to me, but I probably pray several times a day just to get me through it. I think it is perfectly acceptable to express doubt over the Medjugorje apparitions; supernatural phenomenon can be caused by other forces besides our God. There have been many claims by visionaries all over the world in different times, and only a small fraction of those have been approved by the Church. Is it to say that the ones that have not been approved by the Church are false and made-up? Certainly not. But, that means that such assertions must be carefully and thoughtfully examined through our human capacity along with continuous prayer and faith that God can and will reveal Himself to His people in any way He so chooses.
ReplyDeleterkl said...
ReplyDelete"You have to admit that Ivan's comments were rather bland and vague."
Boniface didn't reference his source for the quotes from Ivan so we don't know exactly who wrote them, Ivan or an interpreter. Still, English is not Ivan's primary language. Furthermore, the visionaries that the Blessed Mother has chosen in approved apparitions have never been the most eloquent. On YouTube, one can see several interviews with Ivan and his message is certainly articulate and meaningful. As Pilgrim alluded, whether one accepts or doesn't accept Medjugorje, insulting Ivan doesn't reflect the love of Christ.
rkl said..."The Mother of God hasn't appeared to me, but I probably pray several times a day just to get me through it."
Of course one doesn't need to be a visionary to pray. If you understood the history better, you would know that, like other visionaries, the individuals involved were not necessarily religious prior to the apparitions. I detect a lack of compassion here.
rkl said..."I think it is perfectly acceptable to express doubt over the Medjugorje apparitions; supernatural phenomenon can be caused by other forces besides our God. There have been many claims by visionaries all over the world in different times, and only a small fraction of those have been approved by the Church."
You are correct, but expressing doubt is a far cry from calling it a lie as Boniface has.
rkl said..."Is it to say that the ones that have not been approved by the Church are false and made-up? Certainly not. But, that means that such assertions must be carefully and thoughtfully examined through our human capacity along with continuous prayer and faith that God can and will reveal Himself to His people in any way He so chooses."
On this we agree 100%
Visionaries are forbidden by the Bishop from engaging in public actions such as this one, and yet he is disobeying.
ReplyDeleteDisobedience does not come from the Madonna. Just on that alone, let alone the blandness of the message and so many other things about Medjugorje we can conclude that the whole thing is fake or contrived by the devil.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI have a question for the last 2 commenters. Do you read this site regularly, or do you sit around Googling for blog posts about Medjugorje every day so you can comment on them?
I read this site irregularly, along with many others..... none of which are pro or anti Medjugorje.
But when it comes to making a decision about whether to pursue a book, a movie, a website or an apparition for that matter.... I tend to give some credence to the comments/endorsements of credible (IMHO) people or groups.
Medjugorje has none of that. I have many friends who have been there and "felt changed". And a local parish has constant trips there and most/many of the parishioners have been there (many 2 or 3 times). However, these people were good and decent Catholics before they went. If anything has "changed" it is to whom they now give credit for their attributes.
Again, give me Fatima, Lourdes et al. Until the Church says something positive (other than silence), you can have the Med.
.
Athanasius said... "Visionaries are forbidden by the Bishop from engaging in public actions such as this one, and yet he is disobeying."
ReplyDeleteAre you speaking of all visionaries or just Ivan? You will need to provide a reference. There is much disinformation about exactly what the Bishop has said and how much authority he has over individual parishioners. So please provide your reference and be specific regarding Ivan's Bishop forbidding him to engage in any public actions in any public venue.
Mr S said...
ReplyDelete"Yeah, if Medjugorje is good enough for JPII, it is good enough for me.... oh, I forgot. .... he never visited there (preferred to go to a Church only 100 miles away or so), and he never gave it recognition."
While JPII did not officially recognize Medjugorje, he did speak fondly of it.
I refer you to: http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/071201
Here is a translation of an excerpt of JPII's hand written letter posted on that site:
'I thank Sophia for everything concerning Medjugorje. I, too, go there every day as a pilgrim in my prayers: I unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this call better. I rejoice that our time does not lack people of prayer and apostles.
'J Paul II
'Christus natus est nobis!
'Venite, adoremus!
'John Paul II, Pope'
Mr. S also said ...
"By the way..... I did attend a speech by Ivan. I was amazed..... at how many said they should have just stayed home."
Well exactly how many people actually said they should have stayed home?
Mr. S also said ...
"Spend an hour or two in Adoration where you can actually SEE the Divine."
That is great advice! So what does that have to do with Ivan?
Boniface said ...
ReplyDelete"But when it comes down to it this whole phenomenon is based on a lie, and that's my problem with it."
In your January 9th blog, you including quite a lengthy entry on "an article that Benedict XVI will soon make public a "Directory" for the examination of alleged apparitions to be used by Bishops' and Diocese's around the world."
As you probably know by now, this story was a lie. See: http://www.ncregister.com/daily/false_rumors_about_apparitions/
Although you mentioned the story was a rumor, you promoted the story to support your position. Why not just call a spade a spade and admit that you are against Medjugorje for reasons other than what you have been able to muster on your blog site. At least be honest about it and don't try to bring rationale Catholic doctrine into it. After all, if the Church was against Medjugorje, it would have judged against it long ago.
Lover of Life said-
ReplyDeleteAfter all, if the Church was against Medjugorje, it would have judged against it long ago.
Not necessarily. If I am not mistaken, the apparitions must end before the Church can render a judgment on them. By continuing daily for God knows how long, they visionaries make it so the Church is unable to make a definitive judgment. It sometimes takes a long time to approve visions....it took the Church until 1923 to give her full approval to the visions of Joan of Arc.
While JPII did not officially recognize Medjugorje, he did speak fondly of it.
ReplyDeleteI refer you to: http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/071201
Here is a translation of an excerpt of JPII's hand written letter posted on that site:
'I thank Sophia for everything concerning Medjugorje. I, too, go there every day as a pilgrim in my prayers: I unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this call better. I rejoice that our time does not lack people of prayer and apostles.
This is in the same vein as when JPII said the consecration (of Russia) was accepted in heaven. Of course it was..... and of course he would unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there..
But again, he never spoke positively of the APPARITION(S) being authenic, or worth of belief.
While JPII did not officially recognize Medjugorje, he did speak fondly of it.
ReplyDeleteI refer you to: http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/071201
Here is a translation of an excerpt of JPII's hand written letter posted on that site:
'I thank Sophia for everything concerning Medjugorje. I, too, go there every day as a pilgrim in my prayers: I unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there. Today we have understood this call better. I rejoice that our time does not lack people of prayer and apostles.
This is in the same vein as when JPII said the consecration ( which some erroniously claim was only of Russia) was accepted in heaven. Of course it was..... and of course he would unite in my prayers with all those who pray there or receive a calling for prayer from there..
But again, he never spoke positively of the APPARITION(S) being authenic, or worthy of belief.
For sure Ivan is "filled with inner contentment" and "now his life has meaning". With his mercedes, real estate and fame based on fake religiosity, yep, for sure ... There is absolutely no commonality in any shape, way or form between real seers such as Saint Bernadette and Saint Jacynth and those fake pseudo seers such as Ivan. And between the true recognized apparitions and Medjugorje. The only authority to recognize the validity of the whole business is the local bishop, not the Vatican. And faith has absolutely nothing to do with feelings. For sure, the devil is again disguising into pseudo light. Claude
ReplyDeleteLoveoflife, genuine visionaries only knew to a limited extent when the apparitions would occur.
ReplyDeleteBernadette was told come for fifteen days. However, there were not consecutive fifteen days. The apparitions were spread out from February to July. Many a time she came and cried because the Madonna was not there.
The children of Fatima were told come for six months. However, Jacinta had other apparitions closer to her last months. She did not know of this in advance. Nor did Lucia know that Our Lady would appear to her in 1925/1926 or 1930.
As the seers are mortals they are not supposed to know everything. That would putting themselves on an equal footing with Heaven.
None of the visionaries above carried the Madonna around the world with them.
and why does Ivan use an interpreter when he speaks English and is married to an American?
Boniface is right. This whole medjugorje nonsense has to stop. Gullible, vulnerable people are being manipulated and taken advantage of , many of whom are at death's door with the promise of an apparition here and there. When Ivan came to my town, I saw envelopes on the altar when he was conversing with the Madonna. I wouldn't bet they were empty, would you?
ReplyDelete