Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Is this Catholic Ecclesiology?


I don't usually do this, but I want to post the comments somebody left for me on my NCYC write up last week. This person thoroughly enjoyed NCYC, thought it was a great event and thought I was being too narrow minded in my critique of it. I take all of these criticisms in good nature, although I think they are wrong, for reasons which I will demonstrate. Below you will find this person comments in their entirety (they posted anonymously, so I have no idea who they are). Please note the ecclesiological view of the Church that this person seems to hold:

I happened to have a wonderful time there. and i thnk it was just what some catholic teens needed. to get away from tradition and praise God through diverse song and worship. it saddens me to hear your immature remarks at the end of this particular blog. i beleive everyone did a great job there and my kids have come back with so many memories, new friends, and the word of God to spread to others. i hope that maybe next time you can be more open minded,or maybe just not even go. God does not focuz on denomination and while yes, i am very proud to be catholic...CHRISTIANITY is the religion, dont compromise it with denomination. God Bless!

Okay, first thing: as I told this person in my response, it is great that they had a wonderful time, but what does that have to do with anything at all? I had a wonderful time as well. Does that in any way affect whether or not the content was wholesome? Only if you hold a Protestantized view that values things for their entertainment value (and entertainment is different from true spiritual edification).

Second, you think the teens needed to get away from tradition and praise God through diverse song and worship? Okay, what tradition are they getting away from? What I mean is this: if teens are "getting away" from tradition by going to NCYC, then that presupposes that where they came from they were getting tradition. However, I bet most kids coming to NCYC do not come from traditional parishes. So where are they getting this exposure to tradition that they need to get away from? Have they ever been exposed to the tradition? I doubt it.

Furthermore, if you think that Catholic teens ought to get away from tradition, then you are not thinking with the mind of the Church. The Church itself exists because of tradition, and herself is kind of one giant Tradition. You cannot be Catholic and despise Tradition so effortlessly. GK Chesterton (whom with Aquinas is the only Catholic writer I quote from with almost complete certainty that he is always correct) said, "The Church has defended tradition in a time which stupidly denied and despised tradition. But that is simply because the Church is always the only thing defending whatever is at the moment stupidly despised." You cannot be a Catholic and seek to free yourself from tradition when to be Catholic means to hold to tradition. To despise Tradition is to think like a Protestant.

Third, this person said, "i beleive everyone did a great job there and my kids have come back with so many memories, new friends, and the word of God to spread to others." Again, with great memories and new friends, what does that have to do with anything? The Islamic kids going to Islamic summer camp could say the same thing. Also, as for the Word of God being spread to others, I don't know what "Word of God" they were hearing at NCYC, because the only message preached over and over again was that God loves you and that with God, you can do anything. That's a good, positive message, one that Joel Olsteen could be proud of. But that's all it is: merely good on a human level. And I'd say it's limited goodness was offset by the amount of quasi-heretical statements they heard.

This person's last comment is the most offensive: God does not focuz [sic] on denomination and while yes, i am very proud to be catholic...CHRISTIANITY is the religion, dont compromise it with denomination." They think the Catholic Church is just another Christian denomination! Aghhh! That is the worst thing expressed in this lamentable post. This is a Protestant view: that the real Church is spiritual and consists of all Christians united spiritually; denominations and visible institutions are just historical accidents that can be modified or dispensed with. Let's again turn to Chesterton for the remedy to this:

"It is simply a historic fact that the Roman Church is the Church and is not a sect. Nor is there anything narrow or unreasonable in saying that the Church is the Church. It may be a good thing that the Roman Empire broke up into nations; but it certainly was not one of the nations into which it broke up. And even a person who thinks it fortunate that the Church broke up into sects ought to be able to distinguish between the little things he likes and the big thing he has broken" (Catholic Church & Conversion).

The Church is absolutely not a denomination. It is the Church. Every other Christian body is some kind of break off from the Church or some kind of deviation of the Church's teaching. Let's remember that until the Reformation, Christian and Catholic meant the same thing. Regarding Protestants, Chesterton has an amusing saying: "Protestants are Catholics gone wrong; that is what is really meant by saying they are Christians."

All of this blogger's comments reveal a staggering misunderstanding of Catholic ecclesiology. That wouldn't be so bad, if it weren't for the fact that this ecclesiology is what is being promoted by NCYC and is what is being taught to young Catholics, that we are just one denomination among many and that it is "Christianity" that really counts. But once you take the Catholicism out of Christianity, what is left? A Protestantized version of the Church. Almost every view this "Catholic" person expressed was a Protestant view. If this is what people are getting out of NCYC, then we should have no part of it.

8 comments:

Zach said...

You make some good points there. They are points I have heard before, though. I've listend to comments such as that from your poster over and over again and it's like getting into a fist fight with mud. It all stems to relativism. I'm right, your right, we're all right. It's that mindset that events such as NCYC and the like are built upon.

Fr. A said...

Wow! That message you got is a completely ignorant and Protestant view of Christianity. There is only one, true Faith; the Catholic one. There is only one religion founded by Christ; the Catholic religion, founded on the solid rock of the Apostle Peter. It's very sad to see a Catholic express these false views.

Fr. A said...

Well, I think a quote from an encyclical of Pope Pius XI is appropriate here~

"There is but one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered and that is by furthuring the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it; for far from that one true Church they have in the past fallen away. The one Church of Christ is visible to all, and will remain, according to the Will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it... Let our separated children, therefore, draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to the See which is 'the root and womb whence issues the Church of God' (Cyp. Ep. 48 ad Cornelium, 3); and let them come, not with any intention nor hope that 'the Church of the living God, the piller and ground of the truth' (I Tim. 3:15), will cast aside the integrity of the Faith and tolerate their errors, but to submit themselves to its teaching and government."

_Mortalium Animos_

318@NICE said...

He's just being a good Protestant.

Dave

Adrienne said...

Since I teach religious education (read Catholic) to the 7th - 12th graders, I am besieged with same nonsense your commenter spewed. It is not the kids but the parents who are the problem. At least half of my kids attend either Awana or go to events at the local mega-church. The parent’s attitude? Well, we’re all Christians so what’s the problem?

Let me tell you the problem. Last Sunday not one kid could tell me that the Mass was a sacrifice, not one kid could name the sacraments or even knows what a sacrament is, and not one kid has a clue of what makes the Catholic Church different. I call that a BIG problem.

JB said...

Here's another bit of Chesterton the commenter should mull over:

"[Catholicism] is the only thing that frees a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."

The NCYC is that degrading slavery, shackles and all. Too bad so many seem to genuinely like their chains, and cannot comprehend living IN LIBERTATEM GLORIAE FILIORUM DEI...

Catholic Mission said...

ECUMENISM OF THE ENGLISH BISHOPS CONTRARY TO VATICAN COUNCIL II
According to the Home Mission Briefing on the website of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of England and Wales(1) there is a joint mission program with the liberal Protestant World Council of Churches.(2)


The English bishops who teach that those saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are visible to us (3) are suggesting that Christians, do not have to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentium 7, dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Cantate Domino Council of Florence etc).


Vatican Council II says all Christians need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. (4)


The Ecumenism policy of the English bishops is contrary to the Magisterium of the Church. It is a refutation of Catholic Tradition and the Church’s interpretation of the Bible.They have been evangelised by the Protestants.



They are unable to state that Vatican Council II and the dogma Outside the Church there is no Salvation teaches that all Protestants and Orthodox Christians are oriented to the fires of Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church.

According to the Catholic Bishops, Protestants and other Christians can be saved in invincible ignorance etc just as in inter religious dialogue with non Christians it is assumed by the bishops that those saved in invincible ignorance among non Christians are known to us in the present times.They imply that this is an exception to the dogma.This is the rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).


Young Catholics in England would have to say that everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be defacto exceptions like those saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is assumed to be visible and so is an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/vocation-director-in-southwarkengland.html

If the baptism of desire was implicit for candidates it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. Candidates with a religious vocation would be accepted who presumably could 'spot' these rare exceptional cases.Those who cannot do so will not be able to priests and nuns.

So candidates with a religious vocation in England would also have to accept also that Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself.


This is the teaching of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales on Ecumenism and inter faith dialogue. This is their policy when accepting candidates with a religious vocation and in teaching at Pontifical seminaries in Rome,the English and Beda College.

This new visible baptism of desire doctrine contradicts magisterial documents.It is also irrational. (a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire and (b) Fr.Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.-Lionel Andrades

CONTINUED

Catholic Mission said...

CONTINUED
___________________________________________


1.Adult Formation and Catechesis.Home Mission Briefing June 2010. Ecumenism

2..http://www.oikoumene.org/en/programmes/unity-mission-evangelism-and-spirituality/mission-and-unity.html

3..http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-bishops-conference-of-england.html

4.Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14




Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7


CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-lay-professor-at-universita.html

LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html

FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links

CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/cantate-domino-council-of-florence-on.html

BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/brazilian-priest-says-vatican-council.html#links

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links

DAPHNE MCLEOD’S COMMENT SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL FOR SSPX, TRADITIONALISTS AND ENGLISH BISHOPS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/daphne-mcleods-comment-should-be-wake.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/ecumenism-of-english-bishops-contrary.html