Sunday, April 30, 2017

Priests' Sober Reflections on the Traditional Mass Crowd

I had a chance some time ago to speak to two different priests on the question of Summorum Pontificum and the traditional Latin Mass as it is celebrated by diocesan priests and regular parish churches. Both had eagerly embraced Summorum Pontificum upon its issue in 2007. Both were eager for the traditional liturgy and Catholic tradition. I wanted to know how things had gone for them over the past ten years. The discouraging nature of their answers was sobering. 

The first priest was a seminarian when Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. He always had a deep respect for Catholic tradition and the traditional liturgy. Like many other traditional-minded seminarians, he had to kind of keep his head down throughout seminary. He maintained a respectful silence in the face of progressive indoctrination, did his required reading by day but studied Aquinas and the Fathers by night, and practiced penance privately while his fellow seminarians were spending their free time watching movies. He is a good and gentle soul. When Benedict XVI issued the motu proprio, he was excited to make himself available to the faithful to celebrate the traditional Mass.

After ordination and his first parish assignment, this priest was generous in promoting the traditional Latin Mass and offered it to a "stable group" on a semi-regular basis.

Those days are long gone.

This priest no longer offers the traditional Latin Mass, nor has he for years. He explained that the people who attended the traditional Latin Mass were so mean-spirited, so hyper-critical, just so obnoxious, that he eventually stopped offering the traditional Mass altogether. Perhaps the saddest thing about the story is this priest's personal interest in traditional Catholicism had began to wane. He wants nothing to do with the Latin Mass community.

The second priest had been ordained for some time when Summorum Pontificum came out. He had long desired to offer the traditional Mass and was in the process of training for a celebret under the indult when Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. He had always loved the traditional Mass because of its reverence and the centrality of God. He was excited to be able to offer the Latin Mass without any permission. He has now been offering the traditional Latin Mass regularly for almost a decade. His traditional Latin Mass liturgy has grown to around 75+ congregants.

"If I would have known back then what these people are actually like, I would have never begun offering the Latin Mass," he told me dryly.

His story resembled the first priest's. Soon after beginning to offer the traditional Latin Mass, he began to have negative interactions with those who attended it. An unending barrage of criticisms about the way the Mass was being offered. A general spirit of criticism that was quicker to lash out in indignation at perceived faults than be grateful for what they had; heresy-hunting and badgering the priest about theological statements they did not think were sufficiently precise rather than encouraging him for speaking the truth. In short, they were a royal pain.

This priest also noted that his traditional Latin Mass crowd were very loath to volunteer for any parish events or attend any other parish functions. He made an interesting observation, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said, "It's like the Latin Mass is a 'fix', something they travel around chasing. Looking for anywhere they can get 'their' Mass and then move on." He felt like they refused to put down roots in his parish; they were takers, not givers. They have given him nothing but headaches.

As of now, this priest is continuing to offer the traditional Mass, but he was very clear that he was unsure if he would continue and that he certainly would not have offered it if he knew what he was in for. He now prefers to say Low Masses privately.

Both of these priests are good, solid diocesan priests who loved the traditional liturgy because of its reverence and Christ-centeredness. The thing is, neither of these priests viewed the traditional Latin Mass as part of a "movement", and nor wanted to be part of one. They simply were drawn to the beauty of the old Mass and wanted to share it; they didn't have any chip on their shoulders.

Now, two things - first, I have known a lot of traditional Catholics and been to many traditional communities, and I know for a fact that not all of them are this way. We are blessed at our parish to have a well-established traditional Latin Mass community that is fairly engaged, overlaps with the Novus Ordo parishioners, and is very supportive of our parish priest. There's a lot of wonderful people out there promoting the Latin Mass. In my neck of the woods, Juventutem Michigan does an amazing job of promoting the traditional Latin Mass with absolutely no politics. So, I know this isn't something negative that all traditional Catholics can be painted with.

But...

I have also been around enough traditional Catholics to totally believe these priests' stories without question. Traddies can be seriously, ridiculously obnoxious. Anyone who has been around traditionalist enclaves knows, as the Lord lives, that I speak the truth.

Second - some may huff and say, "If they would quit saying the Mass of ages just because some parishioners got cranky with them, they don't really understand the importance of the Mass. They're not truly devoted to it."

Well, maybe they weren't. Maybe some are just priests who are curious about it. Maybe some priests prefer it simply because its more beautiful. Most priests who offer the traditional Mass aren't part of any traditionalist movement and don't consider themselves "traddies." The reasons priests offer the traditional Mass are as varied as the priests themselves.

But like it or not, no priest has to offer the traditional Latin Mass. It's totally voluntary. And if you want somebody to do something for you voluntarily, then dang, act grateful. If someone is voluntarily doing you a favor, why on earth would you antagonize them?

Don't be obnoxious. Give them a little leeway. No diocesan priest who risks going against the tide to offer the traditional Latin Mass needs your grief; he probably gets enough from the diocesan bureaucracy. The traditional Latin Mass is a gift - God gave it, and He can take it away, just like He took it away from the Japanese Catholics who lived centuries without a Mass, or the English Catholics of the Elizabethan era. He can take it away from you.

Go ahead, bitch at your priest one more time. Whine about his Latin pronunciation. Complain about the fact that he did a Low Mass because not enough people volunteered for the choir. Keep that behavior up and see how long your priest wants to offer the Latin Mass; tempt God with obnoxious complaining and see what happens. God will take the Mass right away from you just like He took the Promised Land away from the grumbling Israelites.

Show yourself worthy of the Mass of ages. Be a blessing to your priest, not a burden. Volunteer. Be cheerful. Give liberally. Be supportive.

Even if the priest ought to offer the traditional Mass, why make yourself into his cross? Is that what God wants? Do you want your priest to think of traditional Catholics as a lot of bitchy mumblecrusts?

Brethren, do we have the joy of the Lord? We ought to be the most joyous of all people.

By the way, since I know sometimes fellow parishioners read this blog, I should mention that the two priests mentioned are neither our current nor former pastor.

+AMDG+

112 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well said. The Latin Mass people in my neck of the woods appear to be very cult like. Maybe that's just an appearance, and maybe its because for years they were relegated to SSPX masses and that culture of the catacombs bred an isolationist world view. However even people who are new to attending think of themselves as a separate type of Catholic; like a church within a church. For instance all of the men wear suits and all of the women newbies take up "veiling" not because it is a tradition they never gave up (they never had it) but because they think its the thing you do when you go to a Latin Mass. If its just a different form of liturgy but the same sacraments then why the difference? Why would you wait for a Latin Mass to "veil" yourself? Its cult like.
I just want to go to a beautiful and reverent Mass; I don't want to have to wear a Latin Mass "costume" in order to be accepted and my husband (who always dresses nicely) doesn't want to have to dress for a job interview every time we go to mass. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it is what I see, and that attitude is what my husband also sees which is why we don't go. Me and my family lose out, the priests loose out on additional devout congregants, and eventually the whole Latin Mass "community" (and all the church) looses out because they will, as you pointed out, lose the use of the Mass of Ages.
Some serious soul searching needs to be done by Latin Mass goers and you're right to point this out.

Toma Blizanac said...

I agree that people who attend Traditional Latin Mass can be obnoxious. Two or three people constantly complaining, giving advice and almost nobody ready to lift a finger can make life very hard for both the priest and lay people who promote this Mass. There should always be at least one (but preferably more) lay people who can stand as a sort of a wall between such people and the priest so that the priest himself can be free of this type of criticism, especially if TLM is just a part of his job.

However, from my experience priests who regularly celebrate both NO and TLM almost always use this excuse "look how mean (or crazy) those traddies are". This is a way for them to distance themselves from the Traditional Mass, and explain to themselves why they are abandoning it. Because, both from what I've seen in the past ten years, and from what some of the priests who celebrate both NO and TLM say, there is such a pulling apart inside of them, they sort of have to become split personalities. It is incredibly hard, both psychologically and spiritually to celebrate Novus Ordo and then Traditional Mass and then again NO, TLM and so on, when a priest sees and feels what these rites are. Unfortunately, most of the priests working in a parish will go exclusively with the Novus Ordo (perhaps celebrating TLM alone behind closed doors as a sort of therapy after busy NO parish work), otherwise they lose their parish and become ostracized. They did, after all, spend years and years in the Novus Ordo seminaries, Novus Ordo parishes etc. They had to find some sort of excuse, and explanation why they should continue with the compromises that living in such environment necessarily involves. I do sympathise with those priests and pray for them seeing that only a great grace of God can help them in persisting to celebrate TLM and even greater grace in abandoning NO.

Anonymous said...

Your last sentence sums it all up for me. Do we have the joy of the Lord? Do we? How loud is the singing? How broad are the smiles? How many tears of joy at the sacrifice for us, wretches that we are? Or do the bells clank without love? To use a (poor) theatre analogy - we go to the Lord for what's on the program, not way it's laid out on the guide.

Tancred said...

Find another job if you don't like dealing with the public.

St. Benedict's Thistle said...

Imagine these poor priests having to endure actual persecution. Scriptures are full of the people of God being whiny and ungrateful. Not right, but priests have the authority to put an end to that. SMH.

Anonymous said...

I agree. I found myself doing it. Antenna going up for anything being done wrong as soon as I walked in a church. Only ever heard one priest (FSSP) preach against this - gently. :)

Ana Milan said...

The awful outcome of VII is that it made the CC political. Prior to its inauguration there was only one type of Catholic, now we have neo-conservatives, liberals, nu-church, sedevacantists, traddies etc. Before we had only the schismatics who had left the Church, now we have priestly communities defying the Hierarchies & Popes they have elected who have personal gripes they wish to pursue & have shown little interest in coming back fully under the auspices of any pontiff. Many latch on to TLM as a means of driving their home their divisive mandates & emphasise that no-one outside their clique is Catholic. They are the ones holding on to the True Faith & the rest of us will be lost &, of course, it is our own fault. They shout at you when you say the NO Mass is licit (even Bishop Fellay has admitted that it is). Most of them don't like Fellay. All of them refuse to admit they have the same problems of sodomite priests & lack of transparency, only on a lesser scale because there are less of them.

As someone of a age to have grown-up & married prior to VII I certainly miss TLM as there was much more reverence shown to it & church doctrine in those days. I don't like false ecumenism & the resulting displacement of the Tabernacle, loss of our Stations of the Cross, less significance given to the power of Holy Water & the downplay of the Sacraments of Matrimony, Penance, Last Rites & dearth of good catechesis. These times were foretold long ago & Our Lady spoke of the Apostasy stating at the top which we have been living through. They took away the Holy Liturgy of the Old Rite & replaced it with an inferior (but valid) text. They trampled on the Divine Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself - again foretold - but Our Lord said He would be with His Church until the end of time & Our Lady has promised that when all would seem lost, then would be Her Triumph. Neither said we must flee Rome or set-up new churches that would imitate what we used to have but not have the structure & the visibility that God's Church must have at all times if it holds the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven which we Catholics believe it does. Are we not selected to be martyrs for the True Faith if necessary, as so many in various parts of the world are daily witnesses to? God has not abandoned us but many have abandoned Him not seeing Him in the devastation that undoubtedly exists - faithless effeminate prelates who have continuously turned away straight men from entering the priesthood as they want their own kind, Satanic masses even in the Vatican, light shows, environmental & political activism which has nothing to do with the Word of God.

To-day's Catholics are truly placed in a trench between groups of waring factions - elitist (we are the selected Children of God, follow us into the catacombs) & those who decry God's omnificence - no Catholic God & no Hell, population control etc. Persecution comes in many forms as Catholics/Christians in the Middle East & China are daily witnesses to. Our Lady of Fatima in your love for all God's children, pray for us.

meme1961 said...

But of COURSE they are. What else could they be? They are a minority who is under attack, so of course sometimes they respond badly. That's human nature.

Compare and contrast that with what happens when someone tries to take communion kneeling, on the tongue, in a NO Church. The NO folks can get pretty mean and obnoxious, too. I tried to explain, gently, that to do so is a Christian right, but was told that "we don't do that here!".

Such a little thing, one that could easily be tolerated, yet . . . not.

The TLM folks are a minority, and are hypersensitive to change in the Mass precisely because they lived through the change to the NO Mass. They are still reacting to that trauma, and so long as this internal schism exists, they will continue to be fiercely defensive of the extraordinary form, and of it being done correctly.

Having experienced both forms, I can honestly say that I believe the NO Mass, along with widespread disobedience about the use of contraception, has contributed to our loss of vocations.

Anonymous said...

It's true that a lot of people complain but few put the effort in to learn to serve or sing, etc. In my experience the most critical people are those from the Novus Ordo though. And living in an area where I don't have the TLM, I've found the Novus Ordo community to be just as critical on various issues, especially when they find out you are traditional etc. For example calling you superstitious for using sacramental in a certain legitimate way they disagree with.

Novus Ordo communities are just as critical as trads, you just dont see it as often because they have the power and things are going their way in most parishes. Priests don't push back most of the time, that's the only reason there is little conflict. Just look at the issue with Our Lady Star of the Sea parish when they banned girl altar servers.

So I don't buy that hyper-criticism is only a trad issue, or even more a trad problem than others. Liberal Catholics, Conservative Catholics, and trad Catholics are each just as critical in the right environment. Maybe the trads didn't want to volunteer at other parish events, but did the regular parishioners volunteer at the TLM?

If the TLM is to be said at a Novus Ordo parish it needs to be in a regular time slot and made to be part of the normal parish life, not isolated in a late Sunday time slot that is inconvenient for most people to attend. You're segregating the people who attend the TLM on purpose, that's why you're seeing this kind of behavior. Why would they volunteer for other parish events when they aren't made to feel like a real part of the parish anyway?

Boniface said...

There is absolutely zero excuse for Traditionalists to ever be bitchy and obnoxious to their parish priests who are offering them the Traditional Mass. If this really is the superior form of Catholic worship and God's grace is really operative in our lives, we must manifest joy and gratitude, persecuted or not. Treated like shit or not. Anything else is unacceptable.

Sean Mercer said...

Sir Boniface: begin doing some reading on the effects of social marginalization. . . .and the fury and anger it produces. Many of these people are walking wounded through no fault of their own.

I guess those two priests with whom you spoke indicated that all of their NO parishioners are just lilacs in bloom? The fact is that it doesn't take a lot of traditional Mass goers to give the impression that the majority of them are that way. The smaller numbers simply magnify the effect of the cranks and grumps.

And, by the way, the fact is that it's not just about the Latin Mass. I assist at the Latin Mass because it protects and promulgates the Ancient Faith. The NO doesn't do that, and where there are both Masses being offered by priests who offer most of their Masses in the post-conciliar Rite, there IS a lot of deficient theology and errors spoken in sermons (er, excuse me, "homilies" -- even the word sounds effeminate; oh, excuse me. . . .a criticism).

You have a great blog. You swung and missed on this entry.

Boniface said...

^No I didn't. I am exactly right.

Boniface said...

The point is not that NO parishioners are always angels, but that the TLM crowd is characterized by a spirit of complaining and obnoxiousness that is disproportionate. From what I have seen, I totally agree.

Sean Mercer said...

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I'm disappointed that you replied only to my last sentence.

Boniface said...

Nothing personal, friend. I am just way too busy these days to respond to everything. I am just posting all the comments and only reading a few of them. I only get a chance to post once every two or three weeks and I wish I had more time to engage like I used to.

Bless you!

Anonymous said...

I am a 25 year on and off member of our local EF parish.
Boniface's remark on the TLM being the superior form of worship, but with
little to show for it is right on the money.

It was, in fact, the reason I took a break of several years from out community.

Now, I fault myself for lacking fortitude, but the everlasting negativity made real fellowship very difficult. It wasn't enough to acknowlege the problems in the Church, you had to set your hair on fire with rage re: things one cannot do anything about but pray.

The situation is much better now, though. The generation deeply traumatized by the imposition of the NO have mostly gone to their reward. The young families we are seeing now may be angry that they were deprived of the EF growing up, but are eager to make up for lost time. There will always be the curmudgeonly and odd (because the Church is for everyone), but we are all very thankful for our church and our priests.

Aaron said...

Great article. Latin massers are their own worst enemy! I have been going for years and I complain to my priest too much. Thanks for the fraternal correction you asshole!!

Boniface said...

Aaron, you're welcome!

Anonymous said...

It sounds like we are talking about issues of sin. Backbiting, contumely, detraction, etc. Shouldn't these priests be preaching against these issues if they see them manifesting amongst the flock they are suppose to be attending to? ... you know, instead of abandoning them like these priests seem to be doing.

It is a superior liturgy, doesn't mean trads are perfect or superior. And I grew up in the NO, I moved to the TLM and the Byzantine liturgy to get away from the hyper critical attitude in the NO. We went though a year where we had 3-4 priests because the people in charge didn't like any of them. Get them going on the right topic and they will stab people in the back to get their way.

The difference between a NO parish and a trad parish (such as the FSSP), is that the trad priests will actually preach against issues of sin like this.

TF said...

Gosh! No one ever thought of dressing their best for Holy Mass before these Latin Mass people started doing it. What queer birds they are!

Anonymous said...

The parish I attend has brought in a priest from out of town to offer the TLM at noon for the past few years. But he is a severe asthmatic and cannot always make it so our parochial vicar learned the TLM! It is not perfect but we are VERY appreciative for his effort and I have never ever heard one complaint. There is now a 'stable community' that attend including a number of large families. I personally have not known any 'trads' who behave like some somewhere seem to other than a couple of SSPX folks. I am grateful for the opportunity to attend the TLM most weeks.

Boniface said...

Anon-

It's not so much the issue of sin in isolation, but sin kind of concentrated in these particular congregations. It's not just like "Well everybody does these things and the priest should speak out against them no matter what" - that's agreed. But what these priests are saying is that these vices seem to manifest themselves in traditionalist congregations in an exceptional manner.

Nate C said...

Having joy during Holy Mass does not require loud singing, smiling, or tears. Personally I find these things to be distractions and prefer silence. I dont smile during Mass, yet it is the most spiritually uplifting and fulfilling part of my life. Really misunderstanding many people's preferred method of worship i think.

Nate C said...

Im not sure what to make of the accusation that latin massers "loath" volunteering or attending other parish events. I have 6 kids (2 in diapers) and its true i dont volunteer much and i have little interest in the parish social clubs. I go to Mass, I contribute financially, and there is nothing else i need or want from my parish. Working and raising a big family is all consuming for me, its sort of true that the TLM is a "fix", its a real fix for my soul, it is the source & summit of my faith. I guess if a priest or anyone else views it as taking from the parish and not giving back so be it. I dont like the parish functions, they annoy me, they annoyed me when I only knee the Novus Ordo. Perhaps the TLM attracts more of a certain type of personality? I donno.. like most criticism i will do my best to internalize what is constructive but I dont see myself getting more involved in my parish because what i find most important is not a view held by many Novus Ordo only members.

Anonymous said...

Bon- It's saying that this type of sin is concentrated among trads that you are failing to make. You put forward a few anecdotal stories. Where as there are some very public examples of NO congregations revolting against their pastors for doing things like introducing girl altar servers, saying Mass ad orientum, or introducing latin.

This problem is not concentrated among trads, it's just not shown as much else ware because priests just go with the flow in NO parishes and don't typically challenge anything. But we can clearly see that when the status quo is challenged, people erupt in often very public criticism.

It is no surprise that the two examples you gave are the experiences of NO priests. It's no wonder they might experience a certain blow back considering NO parishes are typically hot beads for liturgical infighting. At TLM only parishes, you don't have to worry about liturgy and you can just focus on worshiping God.

Every TLM group, including SSPX'ers, are always aware of being overly critical. Traditional minded people have always treated me better than NO people. At a NO parish I feel like a nobody, where as I've been invited for dinner or talked to whenever I go to a traditional Mass or community and they see I'm a new face.

I do not agree that this is a trad exclusive problem. I've experienced many times very angry neo-conservative or liberal Catholics. To the point where I've had someone message me out of the blue angry telling me "I WORSHIP WITH PROTESTANT BROTHERS AND SISTERS, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?!"

When they are questioned or antagonized, they are far worse than I've ever seen even among the most critical trad guys.

And lastly, you can discuss this without the cussing thank you.

Sad Trad said...

Absolutely valid and needed to be said, and this is coming from a diehard TLM-goer. It's not just priests who suffer from dealing with hostile Trad in-groups, either. I have been driven out of the parish where I used to attend the TLM after I became the target of calumny, malicious gossip and shunning by the ruling clique of the local Latin Mass "community." The pastor refused to help me restore my good name because he couldn't believe those oh-so-perfect, pious Trad ladies could possibly be guilty of such a thing. And I'm so tired of hearing the excuses for the Trads' wretched behavior on account of them having been marginalized and excluded by the NO people. I've been marginalized and excluded by other Trad people, so does that mean that now I get to go and mistreat someone else?

Editor said...

Thank you, Boniface, for saying what needs saying. The FSSP does a decent job of keeping this kind of thing in check, probably because they have training in fortitude and courage, and they are typically not given lone assignments. I've seen FSSP priests just slam the door on these yahoos, benedicamus Domino. It seems to be the lone good-hearted diocesan volunteer priest that gets slammed with the tradinistas.

Deborah said...

Boniface, I know just what you mean. Every time that I talk to TLM'ers about how rude, obnoxious, and too well-dressed for church they are, they just wind up looking irritated. They are WAY too thin-skinned.

Deborah said...

Boniface, I know just what you mean. Every time that I talk to TLM'ers about how rude, obnoxious, and too well-dressed for church they are, they just wind up looking irritated. They are WAY too thin-skinned.

S said...

I attend the Latin Mass whenever possible. Your witness of 2 shepards complaining about their sheep seems odd. It sounds effeminate and not fitting to the dignity of the Priesthood. Perhaps its best such men not offer it. I wonder as well do they really have the intent required for validity?

Anonymous said...

The question comes down to whether the liturgy is a petty affair or an affair of great importance. Traditional Catholics know how important it is, and that every gesture, every word matters. And they know it is worth fighting for, as explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5KkXOtAsig

Anonymous said...

Having the great blessing of assisting at the Latin Mass for a while, I have to agree - most of the people seemed really snobbish and like the Mass "police".
Now if the only Mass that were offered these days would be the Latin Mass, they'd be a minority, wouldn't they?

Anonymous said...

This article seeks to indict---with an argument first deployed by the Catholic Left as it eviscerated, to bitter protests from far too few clergy and scattered laymen in bewildered disarray---a million or so Catholics based upon experiences with a tiny handful of them. The fact that two anonymous priests are leveling the charge is practically meaningless. Or twenty-two. --Roger McCaffrey

OjczeNasz3 said...

When there's no fear of God....evil reigns! What is this murmuring and bickering about, as if holy Mass of All Time, holy Tradition was for a faithful Catholics a 'choice. Only the Protestants can claim novelties as 'we the people', we decide. Protestant Catholics are legions, sadly, they are my neighbors, and family members, and they don't even know it. But, then again, Protestantism is reigning in the many so-called parishes. Many Catholic hearts have been poisoned by none other, then the 'consecrated religious,' lovers of the world.
Our Father Who Art in Heaven.....is All Seeing God, not one 'modernist, liberal, indifferent, silent+fearing 'men,rather then God....will be unjustly judged by our Just God.'
His Church, His Teachings, and His holy Traditions are NOT up for sale, according to the whims of the foolish!

At the end God will sort us all out.....Miserere!

Audrey Amberg said...

Well before Vatican II, there was the rhetorical question of whether one sees his glass half empty or half full. Congregations have personalities just like people; they attract their own kind. Our diocesan Latin Mass is filled with many joyous young families with many children. This has developed over time. There is "our" concept of time, and God's time. Volunteers to help with organization have also come forward. For a long time I wondered if the computer aid of "define" was necessary for the word "volunteer." Of course I have seen the opposite in some parishes. May I put in a plug? Join us at Holy Mass (usually High Mass) at St. Matthew Church in Flint, 3 PM on Sundays.

Audrey Amberg

Anna Everskemper said...

Dear Anonymous, although I do agree with Boniface that there are few cranky and not forthcoming apples in the TLM comunnities, I totally disagree with you. Yes, you HAVE to dress up nicely for the Holy Sacrifice of Mass. It's a Wedding Feast of the Lamb. Son of God,the Bridegroom,is taking His Bride. Do you think a job interview,or maybe your children's,friends'weddings are more importent than your own espousing to the King of Kings?

Nate C said...

Even if everyone despised me at my parish it would have zero impact on my spiritual life. I dont pay any attn to other parishioners as it matters not. You seem to know waaay to much about a group of ppl u probably never should have worried about.

Anna Everskemper said...

"Too well dressed?" I attend NO and tell off my youngest son when he dresses improperly. Holy Sacrifice of Mass is THE Wedding Feast. You are supposed to dress in your best.

David L Alexander said...

As I had written five years ago in my piece, “The Latin Mass: Why You Can’t Have It,” the main reason for the lack of massive proliferation of the Traditional Mass is a simple matter of supply and demand. There are not enough priests who can celebrate it, and not enough of the faithful who want it. No pastor is going to risk the ability to pay the next month’s bills on the prospect of keeping attendance viable, if he interrupts a Sunday morning schedule with a form of the Mass that less than one percent of the faithful will want, and most of *those* from outside his boundaries. It’s administrative suicide.

In the Diocese of Arlington, out of sixty-four parishes and missions, eight parishes up to now have offered the Traditional Mass every Sunday, to meet the demand of (you guessed it) less than one percent of the faithful. Thankfully, beginning next Sunday, and ten years after the issuance of the motu proprio, one centrally-located parish will offer it every Sunday, and (unlike the others) in “prime time” (in this case, at 9:30am). This didn’t happen overnight, and not without cultivating a love for Catholic tradition at the offset, through the reverent celebration of the “ordinary form,” including the use of the Proper antiphons, and Latin plainchant for the Ordinary.

Yes, traditional Catholics are often their own worst enemy, investing nothing in the parish whose Mass they attend, to say nothing of the amateur rubricists who morally bludgeon the priest who is doing his best with what little time he has. Many of them have been pushed around long enough themselves. It’s nothing to excuse, but it’s something to keep in mind.

Capreolus said...

I think it's interesting that your article seems to have summoned up from the void comments from the very kind of people these two brother priests found so obnoxious. A couple of my favorite comments here:

1. "Find another job if you don't like dealing with the public"--someone called "Tancred": it's not a "job," and the congregation isn't the "public," as if priests were receptionists or drive-through workers. Let's translate "Tancred," shall we? "Leave the priesthood if you don't like being a target for every hateful, stupid thing that a layman, like me, might say to you." Nice.

2. "Your witness of 2 shepards [sic] complaining about their sheep seems odd. It sounds effeminate and not fitting to the dignity of the Priesthood"--someone called "S." This is exactly the kind of sniffy, pietistic claptrap these poor priests probably had to put up with when not dodging outright vitriol. So, "S," do you think Holy Samuel was "effeminate" and somehow lacking in dignity when he complained about the people of Israel? Was Moses? Was the Cure' of Ars? He complained about his congregation frequently, and to their faces.

I think the dissenting voices among the commenters would be very well served if they would lay aside for a moment their "righteous indignation"--if that's even possible for them anymore--and consider seriously whether the revival of the Latin Mass will continue if young, newly-ordained priests, eager to begin saying the TLM for the faithful, find instead that they have unwittingly exposed themselves to a host of bitter, self-righteous, and seemingly implacable antagonists.

Cindy said...

I have been going to a TLM community for about 8 years now, and I do agree that they have a sort of attitude. I believe the TLM (especially the high mass) is one of the best forms to praise Our Lord (maybe besides a pontifical high mass!). Before going there, I would do traditional things at NO parishes: wore the veil, knelt for communion, and such. The more liberal the parish, the more rude comments I got. I was finally able to move out-of-state and was able to live about 1 hour away from a diocese-approved TLM parish.

I sometimes go to a NO parish when I can't make the long drive and other people from my TLM parish go there sometimes, too. With regards to attire, most of these people are hypocrites. When they attend the NO mass, the women do not wear veils and the men downgrade from suits to dressy-casual. When you see them at the TLM parish, they're wearing veils, dresses, and suits (although, only about half of the women veil anyway... don't know why). So, yes I do see the "they think its the thing you do when you go to a Latin Mass."

I'm not too sure WHY people at TLM parishes tend to be rude and snotty. Not all of them, but a pretty good chunk do have an air of superiority about them. Our TLM priest doesn't see it because... he unfortunately has the same attitude...he also doesn't like me too much because I pointed {nicely) out some of these items. He's a good priest, but he has blind spots. I do pray for him.

That said, I don't go to the TLM because of the people, I go for Our Lord.

David Messick said...

You're just judgemental​. I forgive you.

Paul S. said...

Amen, Boniface, Be the Maquis: the Traditional Latin Mass needs lay Catholic faithful who will gently and patiently assist and encourage those diocesan pastors and parochial vicars who have some willingness to celebrate the Extraordinary Form.

In that regards, another Diocese of Lansing presbyter will celebrate his first public TLM this Ascension Thursday at Christ the King, Ann Arbor - early in the afternoon.

And Sunday, June 25th, will see one of this year's ordinandi celebrating one of his Masses of Thanksgiving according to the older books at St. Mary Star of the Sea, Jackson, at 12:15 p.m.

Any regional faithful who particularly want to "vote with their feet" with regard to the TLM should make the effort to attend these liturgies.

Anonymous said...

Deborah, I assume you are speaking "tongue in cheek." Otherwise check out "How to Win Friends and Friends and Influence People."

Audrey

Anonymous said...

@Sad Trad: you sound like someone I know through in my in-laws. You wouldn't happen to have a large family and your last name begins with "W", would it? If you are who I think you are, I can understand your complaints about the "clique" of the parish. Oh yeah, there's one...

Melanie said...

This is total nonsense.

Anonymous said...

The above article confirms the thesis I heard once again during last Sunday sermon (SSPX mass): most of today priests do not know who they are. And what the purpose of their life/service is.

Praypraypray said...

I agree with you, Mr. McCaffrey. This article has a whole group of people guilty until proven innocent, because of some personal experiences or biases of the writer and some anonymous priests and commentators. Reminds me of the old boys are better than girls or vice versa arguments. No real solid matter, just a few opinions based on just a few personal experiences. We used to have a radio program on years ago in my area called Air Your Opinion and this article and some of the comments following it remind me of that show. You cannot judge a whole group of people by the opinions of two anonymous priests and some commentators. The words prejudiced and bigotry come to mind. There are good and bad in all different groups. There are complainers and crabby people in many varied groups. There are noble and charitable people in the different groups.

Ivan Knezović said...

It's very hard to be an active part of the TLM community when we have it maybe two times a month and only one of those being Sundays and on top of that having to travel 5 hours from where I study to get there and then have to abandon family lunches to get to the mass at 4pm.
The bitterness is unavoidable because your own Church hates what you love, it doesn't want you to even have that one small Church once a week (we have to even hide ourselves so even when there is one it's hard to know there is one, and I missed the recent ones because of that) and most masses aren't even offered by local priests, even if they know how to say it.
I have had no negative experiences with the people attending mostly because I just drop in when I can, but I can see the bitterness inside myself, because they treat us as if we were a cult, while those communities which practice the most un-catholic practices like the charismatics get all the support they need.

Ivan Knezović said...

Singing, smiling and tears come to me during TLM. I have a horrible voice and almost never sing, except during TLM and have tears of joy because I finally get to participate in one.

Ivan Knezović said...

Ostracized people respond with bitterness.
They should not be, especially when they receive a grace of TLM, but what do you think years of political persecution will produce?

LMS Lincolnshire said...

Let's cut to the chase on this. I do not speak on behalf of the LMS, but I am an LMS representative, and the main complaint I now get is about 'Toxic trads on the internet' nowadays putting Catholics off of attending the Latin Mass. There is no doubt that we have now hit a plateau of those who are attending. Attracting new attendees is now hard work. In England we were at 182 Latin Mass centres, but this has dropped to 150 recently.

Msgr Charles Pope has already warned us about these issues (here)... http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/an-urgent-warning-about-the-future-of-the-traditional-latin-mass

'Toxic trads' (ironically nowadays in the more mainstream end of the TLM spectrum) are causing big problems... FACT!

OjczeNasz3 said...

The Wonder of all ‘wonders!’ Let us wonder no more, rather, be awake, and on guard! God Will Not Be Mocked!!!

Democracy is another of liberalism’s venomous serpents, that very soon after the Second Vatican Council exploded (especially into the American Church), like land-mines inside the holy Church. Transforming the dogmatic Church of Christ into the democratic ‘church’ of man, with no thought given to the integral sacredness of holy orthodoxy, to the holy traditions of antiquity, to the teaching and governing Magisterium, nor, to the Sacred Heart Himself, whose wishes are conveyed to all men THROUGH HIS ONE CHURCH!

Volumes can be written about the Liturgical abuses.......countless souls are burning in hell (known to God alone).....yes, the Four Last Things.....have been put on the shelf: Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell, we should all tremble! ....for we are ‘our brother’s keeper.’ The will of man can never alter the Commandments of God or overturn the moral or dogmatic judgments of the Church’s Sovereign Magisterium.......
Let us never forget, it was the ‘majority’ that perished in the Great Flood, that provoked God’s wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah. Let us learn from the once ‘chosen people’, how the Hand of God has come upon them in every century, until today. The Church of Christ is the New Israel, we are ‘the chosen people in Christ.’ The Hand of God, came down (justly) on us Catholics......we have never been so divided, nor throwing stones at each other...we are tested in the fire, let us not burn.

Let us also not forget: “WHERE THE REFORMATION INTRODUCED PROTESTANTISM TO THE WORLD, LIBERALISM AND MODERNISM INTRODUCED PROTESTANTISM TO THE CHURCH, DEMOCRACY +++ AMERICANISM. THE RIGHTS OF MAN, WHICH HAD BEEN GRADUALLY EATING AWAY AT THE RIGHTS OF GOD FOR 500 YEARS, WERE NOW ATTACKING LIKE A FRENZIED BLOOD ORGY OF KILLER SHARKS.”

Democracy is the most ‘politically correct’ of all systems. Catholicism, the most politically incorrect. Something to ponder about.

Arise soldiers of Christ!, stay awake, for this is their ‘hour of darkness’, ‘Fear Not!’.....defend His Truth, His Church, until your last breath! Save your soul!

Pray for the priests! They desperately need our prayers...., lest many will perish!
Pray for the enemy ‘within’ the holy Church, may they repent, and convert while there’s still time.......lest!
Pray, for the conversion of the Protestant United States, for the conversion of the President, and his family.....this is ‘charity,’ and true love of neighbor!

Jesu Maria Joseph I love You, save souls!

Andrew Nelson said...

First, I am in a regular parish which offers the TLM once a month. Second, I get tired of people writing articles/blogs about the so-called overwhelming majority of traditional Catholics who are angry, negative, and 'cult like' according to one anonymous response. Or have the gall to wear a veil to Mass and even dress up for Mass, too. Oh, the horror of it all.

How do you or the priests know it is the majority of traditional Catholics who supposedly act in this manner? And even if so in these two instances, why broadcast it to the world, as it gives the impression 'all' traditional Catholics act the same way. As you call for charity towards these priests, where is the charity towards traditional Catholics?

As we have a 'new normal' within our culture, we also have a 'new normal(traditions)' within the Church. So now the time tested traditions of the Church for over hundreds of years, are somehow not up to par in our modern days. However, I wonder if a Catholic from a hundred years ago came back today, which Mass and people attending the Mass would they believe are Catholic? There can be no so-called progress when we cut ourselves off from the past. A tree cannot bear fruit when you cut it off from the roots.

Sam Ferraro said...

Well said Boniface!

Athelstane said...

It's true that a lot of people complain but few put the effort in to learn to serve or sing, etc.

The difficulty of assembling adequate choirs is something I have seen in to many TLM communities. I know of even an Institute of Christ the King oratory where trying to recruit people for the schola is like pulling teeth. No problem getting servers, of course.... One might point to the long distances many typically drive to a TLM, and how that makes weekday practices more difficult to attend, but the problem clearly goes beyond that. Some traditionalists seem to have a family bunker mentality - understandable in a certain way given where things are....but not helpful in the context of building up the parish or TLM.

If you want your Mass, you have to do what it takes to support it. That means tithing, yes; it also means all the other things necessary, too.

Anonymous said...

The TLM attracts all kinds of people but it does have a particular attraction to religious nuts, like me, and cranks of various sorts. This is because we don't "go with the flow." Instead we have a sharpened sense of right and wrong, and this leads some of us complain about what is wrong instead of sweeping it under the rug. It is wrong however to condemn the entire TLM community based on its squeaky wheels. I in any event would take any day the brutally frank and straight-shooting squeaky wheel over the smiley behind your back "let's all get along" type.

Sad Trad said...

Ha! No, my last name doesn't begin with "W" so I'm definitely not the same person. Thanks for your kind comment, and I extend my heartfelt sympathy to your in-laws' friend as well.

Anonymous said...

Good morning,

I tripped over this blog today. Your article and many of the comments are very interesting. Recently our diocescian bishop invited The Priestly Fraternity of St Peter to reopen a parish in our dioceses. In my lifetime I never thought I would see a return of a full TLM parish in my dioceses here in New England.

To see so many young families and lots of children and teenagers, young adults and older folk like myself has truly been a great blessing.
Not mention the re-learning curve I have come to. It has been less than a year since our parish reopened and Latin is quickly becoming one of my favorite music to listen to. Also what makes this incredible experience even more beautiful we have a brand new parish and get to meet so many wonder folks from all over. Also a very patient pastor who is always very patient answering my questions.

Sorry about sharing so much. Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Sincerely,
CJE

Anonymous said...

Sure, some of the Traditionalist Catholics in the world can be obnoxious. As we all can. That's human nature - we stumble, fall, pick ourselves up, try to correct our faults and the cycle repeats. None of us are perfect. But there's a gaping hole in this article, which may or may not be intentional: the bigger picture is missing. No mention of the graces of the Mass. No mention of how the TLM has been denied to several faithful Catholics around the world since Vatican II, from Canada to the US to Lebanon and the world over. No mention of how much we Traditionalists love our priests and want to see the priesthood safeguarded. No mention of how warm and inviting Traditionalist communities are and continue to be - I would not be where I am today if I wasn't encouraged to lunch with several Traditionalists. No mention of how much Traditionalists have had to sacrifice in order to attend the TLM ... be it friends, convenience to a closer parish, family approval, money to purchase missals and so on. No mention of how several of the TLMs on offer are housed in NO parishes, which are so focused on social justice that they turn Traditionalists right off - not to mention that Traditionalists are often on the frontlines of the battle against the culture of death outside of the Church, as I am. This article forgets all of that to make yet another insult towards the Traditionalist community - an insult it doesn't need when all we Traditionalists want is to attend a Mass where the spirit of Vatican II doesn't prevail, and we can honor and worship God with the due reverence He deserves.

Anonymous said...

https://liturgyguy.com/2017/05/01/for-traditionalists-the-insults-will-continue-until-morale-improves/

Marie said...

We can not expect people (usually large families) who travel to a distant parish just to get to a TLM (usually scheduled at an inconvenient time) to participate in that parish's activities, such as cleaning the church, working in the garden or helping organize fund raising for the school and repairs of windows and pews. It's unreasonable and impractical.

We had a TLM for four years in our parish and we coetus fidelium did all that Fr. Z advised traditionalists to do: Volunteer in the activities of your parish. So we did. It's our parish, after all.

We spent time, energy and money replacing Latin Mass paraphernalia that have largely disappeared in the intervening NO years: Pew copies of the Kyriale and Prayers of the Ordinary, Propers chant books, tall candlesticks, a standing crucifix and altar flower vases, regulation triple-folded altar cloths and paraments, and generous Mass stipends to the TLM priest whom we borrowed from another diocese.

In addition, we were active in the normal activities of our parish, the Legion of Mary, weekday NO Mass and Rosary, novenas, 24/7 Eucharistic adoration, and various fund raisers.

Imagine my shock when a man who regularly traveled with his family many miles to our TLM told me out of the blue that he refused to drop a cent into our collection basket because being a Latin Mass purist, it's against his principle to contribute to a NO parish. What's wrong with this picture?

Anonymous said...

Sorry to say that you failed to recognize a lack of leadership when it's looking straight at you. I attend both NO and TLM. The congregations are very respectful to the priests. Are there complainers in both crowds? Absolutely - and good priests are good at handling them. Dumping on the TLM reveals more about you than your words.

Anonymous said...

CJE,
I too attend St. Stanislaw, and am myself on the younger side.

I think that the personal parish mentality is very different than the indult mentality, since they aren't relegated to the sidelines, and can be treated as full members of the parish, because they are all of the parish. Further, if this particular vice is more common among traditionalists, it is possibly due to certain temperments being more likely to search out tradition and traditionalists being more likely to try to grow in the spiritual life. As to the first, those temperments usually do have judgementalism as a characteristic vice and once you make a little progress in the spiritual life, pride and judgement become serious problems until God sees fit to grant you charity. And those same features apply to the "ruling bodies" of NO parishes, for the same reasons, since people who care will most likely be of the same temperment, just grown in a different enviroment. That is, such matters are not the TLM's fault, but it is simply focused and intensified by a preponderance of similar temperments.

William Riccio said...

Whether the priest in question had a bad situation, I am not going to discuss. What I will do is offer the observation that where traditionalists are not seen as "on the fringe," where they are not seen as "different," and where they are welcomed as Catholics trying to live a good Catholic life, those barriers break down and they break down quickly. It's been a decade since Summorum Pontificum, but in may ways the manner in which traditionalist and those who desire the traditional rites are treated has not changed in the Church Universal. Charity begets charity, suspicion begets suspicion. For five decades people who desired the older forms of Mass were told there was something wrong with them. Many of the people who told them that are pastors. These barriers will collapse over time, but -- and this is a big but -- the traditionalist has been marginalized for a long time, and those scars don't go away over night. Charity is a two-way street, and in a lot of parishes that have the Traditional Mass those attending are not seen as "real" parishioners.

Boniface said...

Many of you who disagree with the priests' comments in this article seem to be essentially saying, "Yeah, Trads are frequently assholes, but they have a reasonable justification," something I can't disagree with strongly enough.

Keep in mind, both of these priests are priests who were originally disposed to promote the Traditional Mass. They both loved tradition and embraced Summorum Pontificum. They were not priests who assumed trads were "on the fringe"

JTLiuzza said...

Those poor priests. They'll be much happier in the novus ordo, where nobody will ever question anything they say or do. They can do whatever they want with the liturgy, their homily, just wing it, and they'll be greeted by nothing but smiles and handshakes, never "obnoxiously" challenged on anything. And the amount of people helping to make sandwiches and sweep the floors will be too numerous to count. It will be like heaven on earth.

Boniface said...

@JTLiuzza-

"You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye,
and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matt. 7:5

The issue cannot be addressed by just saying "HAHA! The Novus Ordo suckkkkks"

Anonymous said...

This is a sermon from a good and holy priest who exclusively offers the Extraordinary Form, who touches on this very subject. He specifically addresses the fact that people will jump all over something they do not approve, but never stop and give thanks for those things of which they approve and appreciate.

https://soundcloud.com/luke1128/2016-06-19-while-hating-evil-we-must-also-love-the-good

Deborah said...

Audrey, I can't imagine why you think I'm speaking with tongue in cheek. I'm merely agreeing with Boniface that the TLM people he disagrees with are rude, obnoxious people. I've certainly met no one like that at the NO parishes I have assisted at. In fact, at the last NO Mass I assisted at, the people around me were celebrating with loud voices like it was a cocktail party about the last football game they saw. And who wants to listen to the homily anyway, except the sticks in the mud?

Anonymous said...

I'm no theologian, but I am fairly certain that a critical spirit is NOT the fruit of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in EITHER form.

Stephen Lowe said...

I like how the priest faces us at Consecration in the NO...we are all important don't you know? See? Poor modern snowflakes are not as judgemental as this article portrays are they?

Anonymous said...

I think that the EF attracts a certain set of kooks - by this I mean sedevacantists, and Vatican II haters who can be awfully crabby and mean spirited. Even if these crabs are only ten percent of the total going to the EF, they can be 90 percent of the complaining. They will argue about anything and everything, and appear to be constantly joyless and are a drag to be around. Now, I often agree with some of their criticisms, but they take things way too far.

Most of the people going to the EF are great people. But there is this very loud subset of not even quite Catholics, if you ask me, who are ruining the EF for everyone else. It is up to the normal people to form a bulwark between these people and the priest

JFM said...

Maybe these priests could address the subject in their preaching....

Anna Everskemper said...

"I sometimes go to a NO parish when I can't make the long drive and other people from my TLM parish go there sometimes, too. With regards to attire, most of these people are hypocrites. When they attend the NO mass, the women do not wear veils (...) This.
This hypocrisy is also my experience.

Olaus Ouisconsinensis said...

I thank you for this post because I, personally, have been part of this problem.

N.D. said...

http://www.onepeterfive.com/traditionalists-insults-will-continue-morale-improves/

The law of noncontradiction makes it clear that those Baptized Catholics who affirm the Sanctity of human life from the moment of conception, and the Sanctity of the marital act, and thus the Sanctity of marriage and the family, and those Baptized Catholics who condone the act of abortion, thus denying the Sanctity of human life from the moment of conception, and condone same-sex sexual acts, thus denying the Sanctity of the marital act, and thus the Sanctity of marriage and the family, cannot both be in communion with Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There is no traditional Catholic who denies that God Is The Author of Love, of Life, and of Marriage by condoning abortion and same-sex sexual relations, thus why would any Catholic insult any other Catholic for being in communion with Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, unless they no longer believed in The Deposit of Faith?

To deny that God Is The Author of Love, of Life, and of Marriage, is to deny The Divinity of The Most Holy and Undivided Blessed Trinity, and thus Salvational Love, God's Gift of Grace and Mercy.

Anonymous said...

Let's be realistic. Because the EF is a "high culture" phenomenon, the people who self-select into it are likely to be of higher intelligence with greater educational accomplishment. I am not surprised that a parish priest finds dealing with people who are leaders in their own fields difficult, given the main qualification for becoming a priest today is the willingness to remain celibate, and not leadership skills. It is a "herding cats" situation.

These two priests should enjoy the rest of their priestly careers. There will be no one to follow them into the priesthood without the large families that accompany the EF.

Amateur Brain Surgeon said...

Dear Brother Boniface, You are spot on and the negative responses are the very problem you are, kindly, seeking to address.

They roar when they attack and mewl when they are criticised.

Anonymous said...

I think that much of this is a stereotype or a meme. There is some basis of truth to it, and much of it is very understandable, considering what trads have been through, and what they continue to go through.

If one knows a Jew who is grasping, selfish, and miserly, one may attribute that to his Jewishness in a bigoted manner. If one knows a Jew who is selfless, generous, and kind, one usually does not attribute that to his Jewishness, or, one would recognize that this particular Jew is a great guy, despite his being Jewish (again showing bigotry). This is how stereotypes work.

So, if one finds a trad who is a stickler for the rubrics, who considers himself a liturgical expert, and thinks he is the standard for modesty and proper comportment, and lets everyone know in no uncertain terms, then one may attribute that to trads being bitter and complainers. If one finds a trad who is helpful, joyful, and meek, one might find him to be a wonderful person and perhaps a holy Catholic, but would be unlikely to attribute that to the fact that this person happens to attend the TLM. If one finds a helpful, joyful, meek trad who has sick kids, has just driven an hour, and has baby vomit on her best dress, and who just at that moment happens not to be especially joyful, helpful, or meek, well then...bitter trad. So the meme is reinforced.

Unfortunately, articles like this also reinforce these stereotypes, however truthful they may be. So, fallen people can look at articles like this and rather than think deeply about the person with whom they are dealing, they have a short cut: Bitter Traddie. No need for further consideration. This plays both to those who are against tradition and to those who try it, but find the dedication necessary a bit inconvenient. After all, who want to have to dress up for Our Lord or drive an hour to see Him? Especially if it means you have to rub shoulders with bitter trads? It also plays into the hands of those who are against religion in general and against the Catholic Church in particular.

Boniface sees a lot of this because he has a blog. People with strong opinions are always happy to voice them and blogs attract folks with opinions. So Boniface gets more than his share, I am sure.

I am actually a NO person, mostly. I went to the TLM out of curiosity and stayed because the people were so wonderful. I had tried to get involved in my NO parish, across the street from my house and was given the brush off several times. But I do have a hard time getting too involved with my Latin Mass parish, because I have to drive an hour to get there. And I admit that if someone were to accuse me of being an angry trad, I might get irritated, thereby confirming their opinion. I still have to do a lot of work on my virtue.

Anyway, I expect that this article won't resolve the problem as much as it will serve to drive the hits up on this fine site.

alan

Dan Hunter said...

We mainly go to SSPX Mass, where there is absolutely NO problems.
We also go to a local diocese low Mass on Thursdays and no problems.
15 people have donated over 12,000.00

Marie said...

Anna Everskemper,

Head coverings for women (veils, hats, scarves, doilies, and if in a bind, handkerchiefs) are required by the Canon Law that governed the Mass before Vatican II.

It's not hypocrisy that women attending today's TLM use them to the same Mass.

Olaus Ouisconsinensis said...

In response to N.D.:

What does your response have to do with the matter at hand? The law of noncontradiction does not prevent people who are orthodox in the Faith from *also* engaging in the kind of obnoxious behavior described in the article. The principle of noncontradiction doesn't enter into it.

Also, no one is insulting anyone for being orthodox. Two priests are doing their duty of pointing out the sins they see in a particular group of congregants. Either the congregants involved are/were guilty of those specific sins, or else they are/were not, but no one is insulting anyone else for being in communion with the Church. One can make the criticisms in question and still believe the Deposit of Faith. Please step back a bit from your obvious emotional investment and try to reason on the matter.

It's exactly this sort of unwarranted mental (and emotional) leap that alienates so many from self-identifying traditionalists. Thank you.

Pater, O.S.B. said...

I am sorry to hear these priests had bad experiences. I am a priest who has offered the traditional Mass for the faithful regularly, and have to say that I have always received the greatest support and kindness from the faithful attached to the traditional Mass. I never received criticism for my manner of offering the Mass or observance of the rubrics. That being said, I had the rubrics down cold, and made sure I knew what I was doing before celebrating publicly. Priests should keep in mind that the whole approach to liturgical and spiritual/ascetical discipline in the extraordinary form differs greatly from what they learned in the seminary. I suspect that sometimes priests who are 'tradition friendly' walk unknowingly into a mine-field when they do not take in to consideration the whole theological, canonical, devotional and pastoral universe presupposed by the extraordinary form of the Mass. Mastering Latin and the ceremonies is only the tip of the iceberg. None of this, of course, excuses rudeness from the faithful, but I suspect that many sources of conflict between priests interested in the traditional Mass and the faithful who are attracted to it would be removed or lessened in intensity if they were more familiar with where traditionalists were coming from in terms of those elements of the Catholic history, theology, and culture which they were not exposed to in seminary. I mean this in general, and am not referring to these two priests whom I do not know enough about.

Anonymous said...

I've been attending the Latin Mass for about 15 years now. I know space is limited but I'd like to address this issue from the other side of the Communion Rail. Most Latin Mass goers have suffered for
their Faith. They've attended many, many Liturgies which ranged from disordered to blasphemous. Their fellow congregants were often dressed in outfits more suited for a beach: halter tops, short shorts, flip flops, faded ripped t-shirts and jeans etc. Horrible songs and horrible singing. Heretical sermons praising every pop guru and every Eastern hoodoo you could come up with. One sermon that comes immediately to mind was a Roast for the new Deacons. It went on forever, never mentioning anything having to do with religion, but lots of clapping and jocularity, like it was an awards show.

So sometimes when people find the Latin Mass, they are kind of shell shocked. They probably are guarded and hyper-vigilant about possible abuses. They've lived through the worst of them.

And abuses they will continue to find. The abuses are frequently not in the
words or rubrics of the Mass, but there will be continual efforts to discourage them from attending.
The Latin Masses are located in “urban” neighborhoods in the inner city, often in high crime areas.
For many years the heat was too seldom on in the winter, and the windows were not opened in the summer. One priest would change key words of the Gospel making it say the opposite of what it was actually saying. He would read his “sermons” which were lifted from secular or Protestant texts and/or were laughably out of date or irrelevant. Many sermons were so ridiculous it is hard not to believe that the priest was being deliberately provocative. Many times there are people scattered throughout the Church doing crazy, distracting things, so outrageous and inappropriate that again it is difficult to believe that this is not intentional.

I don't believe the priests in this tale actually exist; but if they do, their disrespect and hostility toward
their congregants would be in keeping with the official attitude the Church has adopted for Traditional Catholics and the Latin Mass. By the way, I do not cover my head for Mass. My husband does not wear a suit.

lummox said...

I would hope that someone would at least talk to me before assuming that I was a hypocrite. My guide on the question of when to wear a veil comes not from hypocrisy, but from from the Prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura:

"The wearing of a chapel veil for women is not required when women assist at the Holy Mass according to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. It is, however, the expectation that women who assist at the Mass according to the Extraordinary Form cover their heads, as was the practice at the time that the 1962 Missale Romanum was in force. It is not, however, a sin to participate in the Holy Mass according to the Extraordinary Form without a veil."

Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke, 4 April 2011

Anonymous said...

Did these priests speak to their parishioners privately, as required by our Lord? Or do they just gossip behind their backs?

Anonymous said...

In the "republic of nice," do we recognize any virtue other than being "nice"? Does anyone have any idea whether the two groups are more likely to commit serious sin? Is this the Catholic Church? Or Oprah?

S said...

To be quite honest there are only 3 reasons that priests do not offer the extraordinary form. 1) too lazy to learn it-
Sensuality 2) they lack courage - pride 3) afraid of opinion - vanity. ;BTW this blog post has gotten some traction on the net for a reason. How is it that ANY priest ordained to offer the holy sacrifice would lower himself to complain about those who seek to assist in the miracle of the Mass? Is it time yet to publically discuss the questionable validity of the N.O. service? Would a 'fake' Mass = the abomination causing desolation? Could a near universal spread of such a thing even be possible? = diabolical disorientation.

Anonymous said...

Oh hey, it doesn't matter how many kids you have. You still have just as much obligation to volunteer at church and even more to be a role model for your kids. No excuses.

Anonymous said...

Wearing a veil is NOT traditional except in certain cultures and then that was, if the veil was a long beautiful lace, merely to show off wealth. Please stop promoting this vanity project.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, trad behavior online is EXTREMELY off putting and arrogant. A lot of holier than thou posting and commenting. I don't even want to talk to them because they refuse to discuss or listen. Many do have the attitude that the tlm is the only valid, licit mass, which is not true.

Anonymous said...

Yes you can and should expect such people to volunteer and contribute to the parish, even if they "travel." They have just as much duty to it as anyone. Or maybe they should go to a local parish and build up the community there instead of snobbishly refusing.

Anonymous said...

Seems likely. And they all seem to be online shouting too. Very off putting.

Anonymous said...

THE ARROGANCE of your statement is astounding. And stupid beyond belief. You think highly of yourself. Having a large family doesn't make anyone better than anyone else, nor more saintly or holy. You are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Merely custom. NEVER doctrine or dogma. And unnecessary, vain, trendy, and holier than thou.

Anonymous said...

From my experience with priests who offer both forms of the Mass it simply doesn't seem to work. The priests start out with very good intentions but inevitably they end up with the same complaints about the laity. I am sure some of their complaints are well founded but many are not. The reality is that most priests have lots of pressures on them and I think the Latin Mass ends up becoming a burden to them. For example, some may have to prepared two sermons because of the two different calendars, and some seem to resent having to offer Mass for what is usually a small number of people. As for saying no one helps. Well, that was the situation in the past - priests have got used to having lay people involved but, in reality, there is very little to do for a Latin Mass, other than to set up the altar cards, etc, and most of that can be done by the server and should be. Also, the priests don't appear to appreciate that women were never allowed in the sanctuary and many women who attend the Latin Mass adhere to that.

The priests don't appear to embrace their congregation either - it does work both ways. People attending the Latin Mass usually find the Sunday Mass is scheduled at often inconvenient times, but they have to be grateful I suppose for small mercies. Anyway, that is what they are definitely told by the priests - they should be grateful.

I was brought up in the Church prior to Vatican II before all the lay involvement and lay-run parishes. The attitude of the priests to lay people then was far different. I feel much more comfortable with traditional priests who are approachable. Unfortunately, I think the attitude of priests who offer the novus ordo Mass is poor compared to the priests who offer only the traditional Mass, because I think that those priests are overrun by lay people, with meetings of every kind and they become intolerant and it shows.

Unfortunately, although they may not realize it, I think the two priests you quote have picked up on the general attitude shown by priests to people who love the Latin Mass and I am sure the reality is that they are as much to blame as the lay people they criticize.

Anonymous said...

(Last part)

That's what I would do if I had no access to a proper mass. Thank God I can jump in the metro and whithin 30 min I have both FSSP and PSSPX available. But should these fold (an impossibility given the amount of children and vocations), I'd simply stay home and attend online mass. We do not owe it to the NO crowd to prop up their dying church. On the contrary, when a tree is falling, we should push it down. Ecclesial darwinism all the way!!

But the best part is yet at the end of the post. The idea that the TML could be taken away from us!!! And written with a threatening tone at that!!

Now dear Boniface, you clearly have no idea of what is going on within the church, the different demographic dynamics, the sociology et all.
We do not need you pathetic clowns to say our masses: we can produce our own priests. See that cranky lady with the 7 kids who complains about having to be in church at 8 am, 1 hour away from home? Among those 7 kids, there will be at least one priest who'll attend one of the traditional seminaries. Plenty of those in our parishes. The traditional seminaries are bursting at the seems. Why do you think the pope spends so much energy kissing up to the FSSPX? For fun? By conviction? Nope... For the demographics.

Take a hard look at your white-haired NO congregations and see what future they have. Do the same with your heretical religious orders. We can wait, and when you'll all be dead we will take the church back. Because NO parishes are nothing but zombie congregations who do not realise it yet.
We do not need your condescending arrogance. We do not need you, you need us. So YOU get down from the high horse already.

Konstantin said...

Two priests who learned to offer the old Mass at seminary (one of those where that's the only Mass you learn) had me witness their disregard for the rubrics of the 1962 Missal many times, so much that I even stopped serving for one of them. Unfortunately they both got pretty obnoxious, the latter also feels persecuted because people point out that he isn't doing what he's supposed to. Another priest even encouraged a layman to write to said priest's superior to point out the violations of the rubrics.

I'm not saying that the two priests Boniface mentions have committed the same errors, but at times it is the faithful that are really fighting an uphill battle against some liturgical abuses that also exist in TLM communities.

And regarding the NO, I guess many priests don't face criticism because most Catholics who attend the NO don't care about the things Trads tend to complain about. But I remember when an FSSP priest here in Europe asked for leave to do diocesan ministry, he said something about Euthanasia or a similar issue at his new Parish and people were up in arms -- it was even in the newspaper. He was chased away quite unceremoniously and that is what happens to many conservative priests once they touch people's soft spot.

Anonymous said...

(Second and last part)

That's what I would do if I had no access to a proper mass. Thank God I can jump in the metro and whithin 30 min I have both FSSP and PSSPX available. But should these fold (an impossibility given the amount of children and vocations), I'd simply stay home and attend online mass. We do not owe it to the NO crowd to prop up their dying church. On the contrary, when a tree is falling, we should push it down. Ecclesial darwinism all the way!!

But the best part is yet at the end of the post. The idea that the TML could be taken away from us!!! And written with a threatening tone at that!!

Now dear Boniface, you clearly have no idea of what is going on within the church, the different demographic dynamics, the sociology et all.
We do not need you pathetic clowns to say our masses: we can produce our own priests. See that cranky lady with the 7 kids who complains about having to be in church at 8 am, 1 hour away from home? Among those 7 kids, there will be at least one priest who'll attend one of the traditional seminaries. Plenty of those in our parishes. The traditional seminaries are bursting at the seems. Why do you think the pope spends so much energy kissing up to the FSSPX? For fun? By conviction? Nope... For the demographics.

Take a hard look at your white-haired NO congregations and see what future they have. Do the same with your heretical religious orders. We can wait, and when you'll all be dead we will take the church back. Because NO parishes are nothing but zombie congregations who do not realise it yet.
We do not need your condescending arrogance. We do not need you, you need us. So YOU get down from the high horse already.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:06 am
St.Paul commanded women to cover their head while praying.
Read the Bible!

Julie said...

Remember Love, Love, Jesus is Love. God's greatest gift is the gift of Love.We are to focus on what is good, holy and true. We are to see God's Light and Love in a world of darkness and sin. We are to BE that Light and Love with Jesus working through our Being. Nit picking and fighting is not what God wants. He wants us to go out to all the world and bring Love and Truth to all the people through our Holy actions and Love. Jesus is present in the Holy Eucharist in both forms of the Mass. Reverence is shown in the outward sign more clearly in the Latin Mass form. Yet, is that true within the interior hearts of ALL people who are present ? Reverence may not be as apparent on the exterior in the popular Mass actions. Yet does that mean that ALL the people do not have reverence and love of Jesus in their hearts ? Why do many ladies wear veils during Latin Mass, yet when these same ladies attend non Latin Mass,they do not wear a veil ? Is Jesus not present in the Holy Eucharist in both forms of the Mass ? Holy exterior actions although simple can and will draw others into more reverence for Jesus. It is what is in the heart that matters. God will judge the heart.We need to unite and go out in the world and teach through loving action and good example. We must be the change starting with working on ourselves followed by reaching out to others in holy Love.

scott hutcheon said...

These two priests sound like typical Novus Ordo cucks

Boniface said...

See Scott, that's exactly the problem. Even when these priests go out of their way to learn and offer the Extraordinary Form when they are under no obligation to, its still not
Good enough.

Boo said...

Good article. The comments are very telling. They seem to be generally in these 4 categories:

1) It's the priests' fault, they're not holy enough
(To which I say this kind of rash judgement proves the authors' point)

2) TLM people are bitter because we have perfect cause to be.
(To this I say bitterness is not compatible with true sanctity. Yes there is MUCH cause for bitterness but lots of saints had more cause for bitterness but reacted quite differently

3) TLM people are all negative, hypercritical and act superior to others
(To this I say I know my fair share who appear so and who seem to just do damage in their own community and in ripping the wider Church apart, but I also know many many personally who are just wanting a reverent Mass pleasing to God which will help them stay faithful, and who are beautiful witnesses.

4) Some TLM people are a poor example but some are not.
(To thIs I say 'right on the money! Just like in every other section of the Church!)

Fr Chad Ripperger talks about probs in the trad movement, and he is very insightful. He also talks about problems of negativity:
https://youtu.be/RoEWGSa6bxE
I believe a specific spirit of negativity seeks to influence the TLM movement as every movement is attacked by some demon or another, just as every family is attacked by specific generational spirits.

Jesus wanted that we all be 'one'. A house divided against itself will fall. That is satan's aim. Let us be on our guard. Pax.

Anonymous said...

Extraordinary Form???
What exactly is extraordinary?
Sounds like a new pizza from Dominos Pizza.

Anonymous said...

Was St.Paul vain for saying women should cover their head in church?
Read the bible!

anonymous said...

I read all of this and laughed and cried. When I became Catholic in 1999, I never thought I would be so pulled apart. I found the Latin Mass after 10 years of "team Jesus" and lectors barely dressed, an elderly lifelong Catholic who told me she didn't understand why the Pope didn't allow abortion, a nun who told me one day I would confession to her, an RCIA lecturer who said Catholics don't believe in purgatory anymore, etc. Then Latin Mass with FSSP and it was heaven on Earth, but then everything went away...yes I noticed the criticism but I felt that the FSSP priests we're able to handle the complainers and whiners-- hey those people are everywhere. Now I am at a NO parish and sit in the back in a veil. I look at it as an act of humility. I don't belong here, cannot kneel for communion, cringe-- girl servers, eucharistic ministers, women dressed in tight clothes and stilletoes--but the priest is holy and has welcomed me while I decide what to do. Go back to a place where I could not stand the murmuring anymore or stay where I know I absolutely don't belong? But I don't"deign" to be there. It's a valid Holy Mass. Once when I was praying I thought I saw this in my mind: the Light of Christ so strong and true-- in spite if everything around us...NO, Latin Mass.. Christ is still Supreme and certainly not controlled by any of us!

Boo said...

Amen to that!
We are indeed 'sojourners in a land of exile' (Exodus 2:22).
I know the feeling of not feeling like I belong at most Masses, for the very same reasons! And my poor children..... God help them!
But you are so very right. Christ is bigger than all of us, and though we should give Him our very best, especially in worship, nothing is really good enough! (Though indeed, some come closer than others...).
All we can do, as you indicate, is to try to stay humble. We have all contributed to this mess in some way or another by our lack of holiness (well, I can't speak for you, but I'm certainly guilty of it). We must offer up the suffering of experiencing the state of the Church and be like St Therese, poor children with nothing to offer but our nothings, fully confident in His mercy and victory. Pray for me and mine! Pax

anonymous said...

Dear Boo-- thanks for your reply...I am copying this to place in my "I need inspiration" pages...you are correct I think...we have all contributed to this mess...I was saved but I am lost...I ask, beg and pray for guidance...and I find myself lazy and not very quick to do the things I know I should...inconstancy is one of my temptations...let us persevere...and seek Our Lady's help in every thing...may God bless you and yours...Lisa

TLMWx said...

There are two angles

1) Being attached to a right thing is often mistaken for being personally righteous. Genuine love of the Mass should be measured by your hatred of sin. If there is a lack of charity then spiritual pride would be the area of vulnerability on the traditional side of things. This is to be expected as this is where the devil will make hay. I'm not surprised at this and no one should be.

2) The priests from NO in my experience tend to be more maternally focused. As a result siblings bicker and bullying can be a problem. This is endemic in NO parishes too. Parish councils are notorious and can be extremely vicious. Furthermore Traditional groups are often by fly-in fly-out arrangements where a proper familial and communal spirit is near impossible to cultivate. As the traditional communities grow around a stable community of priests this will right itself I'm sure. In short I think we all suffer from fatherlessness in different ways.

Irenaeus said...

It happens on both sides. We all have our faults. It does not mean that the trad movement is made to be vilified, and the NO is made to be something so much better. Such characterizations are simplistic and miss the bigger picture.

There is hurt on both sides. Writing this piece just proves the insults have increased since the release of Summorum Pontificum, as we battle over who is a true trad. Pointless in the end, really, when we face our final judgments.